When You Get What You Want and it Changes Nothing

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Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown joined by a member of my Inner Circle, Kevin Dahlstrom. And today's conversation came as most of these do, which is we were debating a topic and we said we should probably just hit record. And that topic is David Brooks' Second Mountain. It's a book Kevin and I have both read and enjoyed. It's a very popular concept, especially in entrepreneur circles, post exit founders, building for achievement, then they go on to climb a more significant Second Mountain. So, Kevin, what are your thoughts on the Second Mountain and we'll go from there? Yeah. So first of all, for the listeners, I think I can explain the basic

concept from the book pretty quickly. So David Brooks said that the First Mountain is really what we think of as conventional achievement. It's like career success, status, wealth, however you want to measure it. It's most of what society would define as success. And it's contentious. What happens very commonly, and certainly happened to me, I think happened to you, Mike, is we climb that mountain, we get to the summit, and we realize, it's nothing here. I I climbed the wrong mountain, but there's that other mountain that I need to climb. And then what Brooks contends then is the Second Mountain. So the First Mountain, by definition, is sort of self-centered. He refers to it as the

Instagram life or insecure overachievement. And the Second Mountain is when you shift from being self-centered to first mountain and then realized I was one of, you know, one of my favorite quotes is from Yvonne Sheenard, the founder of Patagonia, famous rock climber. He said, you know, when you reach the summit, it turns out there's nothing there, and it's literally and metaphorically true. And so, you know, then you go to climb the Second Mountain. Now I'm going to drop a little

hint at kind of my take on this, and then I'll turn it back over to you. I have actually concluded that David Brooks' model is sort of incomplete. I actually don't think most people who reach the top of the First Mountain, I don't think the Second Mountain ends up, I think it's very hard to pivot when you're climbing your Second Mountain toward like this other-centered life. I think it is sort of the goal to live in service of others. I don't think that's the second, I think there might be a few mountains in there. So I'll pause there and let you give your take on it. Yeah, I mean, this is a framework that one of my dear friends and teachers, Philip McKernan, often uses. He calls the service-based mountain the third mountain.

And I tend to agree with him because I think, and this has been true for me, is the Second Mountain was actually, so the first mountain is external success, external validation. And then the Second Mountain tends to be turning inward and going, okay, that didn't work. What's going to work? And that mountain, I think, has to be climbed before you can actually truly turn toward the third mountain and be of service because, and the analogy I like to use is dirty to clean fuel, right? The external validation achievement now in Mountain 1 is fueled by dirty fuel. It's by not enoughness, by looking, comparison to others to define success. If you don't dive into your internal world and

figure out where that's coming from and start to heal it, you're going to turn the Second Mountain into the same thing, but in more spiritual roads. And this happens happens all the time, right? It's like, people look altruistic, or they say they're purpose-driven, but there's really still dirty-fuel running underneath there. So they've just dressed up their achievement mountain in new clothes, and it looks better on the surface, but it's the same fuel running underneath. That is exactly what happened to me, and it's funny, like you and I were joking earlier that we derive our points of view from lived experience and first principles. And it has to ring true for what I've experienced and what I've observed from others. And that definitely rings true. I mean, I think, if you recast three mountains just to kind of partially restate what you said, like

first mountain about external success, or I would call it maybe society's definition of success, I did that for many, many years, climbed the corporate ladder, made it essentially all the way to the top. This isn't really all it's cracked up to be. Second Mountain, as you said, the funny thing is you think you're really pivoting, but you're just doing, it's a different type of achievement, I guess is how I would put it. I made a note where I said in the second mountain, so if the first mountain is about conventional ambition, as society would define it, the second mountain is still about ambition. It's just unconventional. So my version of that was I pivoted to like, I'm going to punch out of the corporate move to Boulder, Colorado and spend all my time rock climbing.

Well, it was a very similar mountain actually just focused on things that truly mean something to me, which is to be clear, a huge way better mountain, but actually it's funny, Mike, because I just became an empty nester, you know, this year, and I'm kind of, you know, I'm kind of pausing to reflect and look around and I've realized exactly what you said that, oh, I climbed it's been a great mountain for the past eight years, but in some ways I'm starting to put my eye on the third mountain and honestly I have some ideas of what that looks like. I'm not even sure that mountain will quite be the living in service mountain. I might have a mountain range to climb before I get there, but I'll pause there.

And does that ring true of what I described like my own experience? Does that ring true for what you've experienced? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, you know, I had the exit. I found it was empty. I burned my entire life down both consciously and unconsciously because I realized it didn't work. And then I went deep down the personal development and spiritual rabbit hole, but at the beginning I was still treating it the personal development and spiritual rabbit hole, but at the beginning I was still treating it as achievement based fuel. I was like, well, if I'm going to be doing personal development and spirituality, I'm going to be the best at personal development. And the cool thing about that process is that it worked. I was relentless in my pursuit. And then those stories, that dirty fuel

actually started to loosen its grip. So the personal development part actually worked. And the other thing I would say is that you don't actually have to delay service until you've completed the work on yourself. I started coaching many years ago and it's not like I wasn't serving those clients, you know, back in 2019 and 2020. I was still doing the thing. So it's a spectrum. It's not like an on-off switch. It's not a complete binary. How would you describe it? So to me, it's very clear in my mind, that I climbed the classic achievement mountain. I have now climbed, recently submitted the unconventional achievement mountain. And now I've got some thoughts on what the next mountain looks like. But what mountain are you on? I mean, look, this for me,

bad pieces of advice that gets repeated so often people think it's truth is follow your passion, you'll never work a day in your life. it's not true, right? There's still parts of the job that feel like work, no matter how much you love your job. And let's be honest, right? I wouldn't do what I'm doing if I wasn't also getting paid handsomely for it. I love the work, but instead of it being empty, it really is for me about teaching what I've learned in a way that can the more that's where the view is no longer empty because,, right? Because it's not about what I did for myself. It's like, Hey, I get to inject myself into one little place in someone's life,

in a window in their life, and then I watch them start to flourish. And by the way, they're the ones doing the work, right? I'm providing sort of the mirror, the interjection,, like, and they're the ones doing the work. But that actually feels way better than anything I accomplished from a business or external validation sense. And I feel like a lot of my fuel is clean now, and I'm going to share some early thinking on kind of where I am in my life. Climacy is a very clear first couple of mountains based on achievement. And by the way, an idea that's related to this that I've been toying with a lot is, I think it actually might be helpful

to do a reset reboot pivot every eight to 10 years that feels like kind of the natural rhythm is amazing as our life is here in Boulder. My wife and and I are having that discussion right now about like, what would the radical version of our next phase look like? And honestly, that's a very fun discussion to have. But it very much plays into this like, what mountain are you choosing to climb? And I'm in a period of life where I think I am willing to relinquish look, I'm as much of an achiever as you'll ever meet. But I think I'm ready finally at age 55 to start relinquishing some of my orientation toward achievement and focus more on a state of being. And that state of being for me, I think looks like simplicity, like peace,

simplicity, less, not more. And so maybe that is before I even get to like this, this state of like, you you know, service, which I think is very admirable. I'm not sure I'm there yet. And last thing I'll say, and these are all kind of random thoughts, hopefully they stimulate thinking thinking for our listeners is, is I mentioned funny jokingly earlier, like, maybe it's not a fixed number of mountains, but a mountain range. And maybe to tie into a topic we talked about a couple hours ago, maybe the actual the whole ballgame is in the climbing, not the summits, no matter whether it's two summits, three summits, 10 summits. It's the climbing itself and the refinement that happens. You mentioned to me in private that, you know, about how you've just almost finished a book, and you have this killer line where you said, I became a writer. Like, that's the

the whole ballgame that is the not the mountain of finishing the book. It's the climbing and maybe continuing to climb. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're pointing to is, is something I think about often, which is holding paradox, right, which is, yes, this this phase of my life is service oriented, right, and I'm included in there to and and I still have human desires, right, like, I, I want my stuff to do well, I, I, you know, want the fame and the money and all the things that drive achievement based humans. What I like to think about is like, what's the flavor of the fuel, right, it's not clean fuel or dirty fuel. It's what's the mixture, right, because the reality is like you're never going to not be human

and can I allow myself to hold the human desire. Desire with with an open palm, right, like, yes, I want the book and my work to reach millions of people, and the predominant flavor is because I think it can help people like that's the predominant flavor of why I do what I do what I do, and there's the human part and neither of those have to resolve to be true. They both get to be there and because I'm doing it with that flavor, I can hold the outcome with an open palm which is what I'm talking about, I'm not attached to my identity to how well the how many copies it sells or how many followers I have, those things are nice and I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's what's the flavor of the signals, but it's what's the flavor of the

Yeah, and I think as we're thinking through this in real time, I think maybe for me the model is less about very clear and distinct phases that we use mountains as, and more about just iteration where you're constantly running on cleaner and cleaner fuel, because I will say, and this is not a brag in any way, in fact, it kind of troubles me in a way that I'm a little older than you, I'm 55, I have a lot of trouble being motivated by money in any way.

The answer is always the same, which is if your edge is fueled by darkness like you'll probably lose it. And what you build in its place may not burn as hot. And that is a confronting thing, because, you know, being driven by lack is a powerful motivator, you know, being driven by the fear of not and the fear of failure like that, it absolutely gets s*** done right it's very effective. And this like what I've found in this phase of my life you know as I let go of and healed a lot of that dirty fuel is that it is harder motivation that used to be there the discipline that used to it isn't on tap anymore right I can't use negative self talk and you know I can't I actually don't have that that motor anymore.

And you don't have to scramble to pay the bills. And I don't have exactly like I have enough and and so it's quieter right it's it's out of devotion rather than discipline. And the reality is like I haven't found the same gear of intensity. And I think that's okay at least it's okay for me right now. Yeah, I'd say not only is it okay it might be the healthiest path and because I feel that man like I you know as someone who started a business you know about a year ago and I still have passion for it but sometimes I actually find myself wishing like I wish I was the 30 year old version of myself who would like stay up till two in the morning every night just grinding on this thing. I just don't have that anymore and you know rather than

viewing it as like losing your edge or a character flaw I think it's maybe like okay to say well that's actually kind of the goal is I like that metaphor you used of like it may not burn as hot anymore but I think in some ways where I'm headed is like to be on a low simmer. Of just being and that doesn't mean I'm not going to do hard things or have big ambition it just means I'm going to approach it in a different way. And that's the the reward the bonus right is the peace because the cost of dirty fuel is that constant background home of lack and and not enoughness and when that starts to get released. Peace is what remains on the other side and so yeah it may not look the same as it did in your third experience the felt experience of climbing the mountain is a lot more enjoyable because you don't have that loop running.

Maybe one hour question then we'll wrap this up but this is one that I get asked actually a lot and I don't actually don't know the answer to it so maybe you've probably faced heard this question a bunch is like do you have to climb the first mountain to get to this place of peace and I don't know man what do you what do you think. Yeah I same right like because it's it's you can't tell the person on the climb that you know like the famous Jim Carrey quote like I hope everyone becomes rich and famous to find out that being rich and famous is not the answer like man high achievers going to find out anyway like let me let me just test that anyway and I don't want to ever anybody of the chase and so you know I do think there is some element of having to find out for

yourself the question is how far do you go right how many companies do you start like do you do you miss all the dinners and miss your kids childhood before you actually find out the answer. And that is the question right is like that's what I think is is more relevant is like all of us have hit a goal at some point in our life that we said would make us happy. And it didn't right. So how many times are we going to keep hitting that lever before we before we actually come to the answer. Yeah how many how many different forms of achievement do we need to win at before we realize that that's not the game. You know it's so the way I always answer it is and I think this is the best answer I've come up with is is that there are seasons of life and I think there probably is a season where there's a lot of benefit to charging hard learning the hard lessons

Summiting that first mountain. Seeing for yourself that even should not was right there's really not much up there, on the summit, literally and metaphorically. The problem that I see though is seasons have an end. And I worked with a ton of guys in in the C-suite in corporate America who will live in one season their entire life and the you know the gift that really was bestowed upon me by by discovering rock climbing was I saw that there was a different way and that that brought a season to an end that and I'm glad it did that was the first mountain for me and maybe I'm at a point where another season is coming in a kind of way. I don't know what I don't know what that looks like yet but it's sir it's fun to think about.

Well and the fun is in the not knowing right like if if we had our whole lives planned out it'd be kind of boring. So I think there's something beautiful about being in a place in your life where you can go I don't even know what's next and how fun. Yeah I think you know final comment on this is like yeah I think and that it does create a certain amount of fear but then trying to just embrace that because it's also like you said is it's super exciting to think about infinite possibilities. And my new thing by the way which I've told you is like you know I'm big on like define and align right like define your end state and then align your actions with it. But I've added a third piece to my puzzle which is then consider like the radical version of alignment what would that look like and that's a really

fun exercise that my wife and I are going through right. Right now like where there's nothing's off the table. Right it's like I kind of have a sense of the state of being I want to achieve how could we get there like in the most radical way possible and then maybe you peel back from that but it's a really fun exercise. Yeah I mean it's it's a test and it's literally operationalizing f*** around and find out. Yeah that's right yeah cool man this is a yeah big thinking and fun fun discussion. Definitely a topic near and dear to both of our hearts as always thanks for tuning in we'll see you next time.