Keith Roberts: Never Build a Business Until You Understand This

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Automatic transcript, lightly corrected for names, with profanity masked. Some passages may contain transcription errors.

When was the moment when you, holy s***, this isn't working? It was hard, to realize this is not going to be the fruitful life that I had envisioned. As the company grew, it created this machine that ate money. Keith Roberts is a transformational leadership speaker and founder of ZenMan, where he spent 24 years creating digital solutions for major brands like frontier airlines, Remax, and the Lumineers. Author of the Zen of Business, he blends ancient wisdom with modern leadership strategies, delivering powerful, story-driven keynotes that help leaders navigate change with intention, clarity, and purpose. What was your first big break? Man, first big break ended up being the biggest backfire. It was over $100, $100,000 to walk away. I realized, like,

man, when you get that shot, you can't f*** it up. I mean, I just can't imagine the the emotions getting a big shot and then having that rug pull. I disappeared off the planet. What were those early entrepreneurial experiences like? F I've always been I mean, I had foreclosure notices that were on my office that I was to take it off the door before an employee saw it, so they didn't know how bad things really work. But there was somebody in a hospital that would cut off their left arm to trade problems with me. Now we'll go back to the question that you stole from me. What would you go back and tell the version of your

self that was in the the thick of it in the agency? Welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations with founders about money, meaning and what makes a truly rich life. Today, I'm joined by Keith Roberts, founded Zenman, a creative agency, ran that for 20 years, anywhere from mom and pop all the way to multinational corporations. Sold that a few years ago. Now you're writing, you're speaking and creating content. And I'm a huge fan, and I'm really excited for this

and I've always been great at making money, but I've always been slightly better at spending money. And so it's I think my relationship spawns from my mother was actually when she was a child so poor she was taken away by welfare with her brother and sister. And observing how that same experience impacted my mom completely differently and how they handled their relationship with money.

Yeah, I mean, it's funny that remember seventh grade being when I learned what the word entrepreneur was and you know I'm 53 not to give too much away, but back then that was not the safe path. And I remember it was an economics teacher saying, you know, an entrepreneur is somebody that does their own thing and they're probably gonna have multiple bankruptcies and almost all of them fail. And it was very different than the perspective today, but it resonated with me as like I still think that's me. And my first business was Magic Moments Photography, which was a photo company I started when I was still in high school doing like high school portraits and stuff. Yeah. And what were those experiences like failed tremendously? Yeah, like honestly, just started a business so we need cell phones and I'm talking like, you know, the real

Zach Morris phone. Yeah, Zach Morris cell phones and we did not need cell phones. We just literally like I think one of the biggest challenges for me in the decades of business was switching from seeing my business's money like monopoly money and seeing it as my money. And so I think even early, on it was easy to just, well, there's something in that the account that's one of the things that I need, one of the things I need, one of the things that even when I had the agency years later, the pinball machines and the vintage Lego collections and the art that you justify as, this will help me sell, but I think it's really getting back to the ego, like it's that desire that's causing suffering. And where do you think that easy come easy go attitude came from?

It's always been easy for me to make money and so there hasn't been this, I've never had a scarcity mindset, right? There's always been this abundance that like things will work out and just sort of had that Ferris Bueller life. But I'll say this, it's only because when you need it, you, you bust a**. It's not comes with that abundance. But you know, I think that so often, especially talking about modern money mindset,

it's all about if you can just have abundant thoughts, you know, champagne is going to fall from the heavens and all your problems are going to be solved, I could use. I could have used a little scarcity. I could have been a much better steward of my money. And it sounds like a similar I think the one, if I could go back and like share one piece of wisdom with my 13 year old self, , it would be compound interest, right? Like the benefit of just sucking something away as early as you can start, you know, even my, my 14 year old is doing it now. And he's doing the math as to, if. If I'm going to be a mechanical engineer and this is my path at one point, will I be financially free? And you know, his vision is his 30s, which I love.

And yeah, he's going to get there. I love that. And, you know, you, you stole a question from, from later on, you know he, you know, what advice would you give your younger self? But I'll have more perfect, probably, if you're anything like me, could use a lot of advice coming up. But how did you get into the creative agency space? What was your path to founding an agency? Yeah, it was since like a young teenager, I wanted to be a professional photographer. And I had the good fortune of going to Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara, California, which was the top school in the world, very small elite school, about 300 students. And I studied industrial scientific and undersea photography. So I can take a picture of like a bullet cutting

through matchsticks or, you know, sea lions, lions, you know, off a coast of Anacap Island, but not super applicable applicable to the real-world. So I was a starving artist for a while. I was an assistant, intelligence with the iPhone and everything we do, compared to the I got 12 I got 12 exposures on my Hasselblad that I have to make the most of or one exposure on my four by five. It's been crazy. So as I was entering that, I did a year as a starving

artist, you know, and spent my life savings on my first art show, which lost the majority of my life, savings and then I had to get a job. And I could not imagine doing anything that wasn't in the creative services. To be completely honest to my old CEO hates when I would share this, but I lied on my resume, said I was a graphic designer, got a job, was so out of the money I had, I had to go to Barnes and Noble and like write down, like get a, we worked with with the Harvard graphics was the application, I did the application, I did not to use, but I said I did went to to Barnes and Noble, like wrote down how to notes, so I could sort of BS my way through my job. And this is where like hard work pays off, right?. I'm not graphic designer, but basic skills. You show up, you do the work.

Two years, got a promotion that moved at Denver. And I just could not do the cubicle corporate world thing. and so I joke that I started a creative agency so I could hire myself once a month as a photographer. And this is a interesting arc,, may not be completely above above four, but, like lying on the

track, but initially, we have some decent opportunities in the adult world, never dipped our toe in it, but I would call, you know apartment complexes and say to the city, what's your website? Oh, we don't have one. You know, can we send you a brochure? No, I'm not interested and人, I would do that a few carried friends do it and then, but I would show people are calling and you know, asking for a website

is my passion and when you went back to sort of like how hard you worked I got my bachelor's degree in two years eight months like placed out of things around I was ready to enter the workforce and that was it was hard to realize this is not going to be the fruitful life that I had envisioned as a youth and having to evolve that into to something that transf would still be fulfilling and I'll sure I'm sure we'll talk about it later but you know commercial art is soul-sucking and agency life as great flame that I did that for two decades like, like you could not pull me back in no matter what you offered me I know a little something about it having a wife who's a marketing agency so yeah yeah not to skip ahead too much we take me

back you know sounds like you were hustling getting your first clients tell me about the good old days of the agency I mean the good old days was before I had employees so when it was just me and the you know companies called, Zen man because it was like the Buddhist dude building websites in his living room under the stairs and then it was fun right there wasn the overhead equals stress and as I built as the company grew it created this machine that ate money and it got to the point in my my ex Mendy who's I would attribute my ex-wife to the person that I've grown the most from knowing in my life amazing amazing woman and entrepreneur but she used to tell me back then like why why do you how all these employees you're the guy people wants to

work with you do the best design work there you even do code like why not just be a one-man shop like an Aaron Draplin and I used to tell her you know how dumb that idea was and retrospect that was brilliant the stress came from as we grew so the first couple years when it was just me that the only challenge then was the isolation right being in your living

and at the same time we got another six-figure job with a collection company and we we're building large applications for both of them and I had brought a subcontractor to do some of the development work the day after I wired him over a hundred thousand dollars he went to both of these clients and said Zen man is in breach because we're not under contract that haven't been paid we had paid him it was very easy to prove we'd wired it but he closed his business and opened a new business to compete directly with Zen man and went to that furniture company and said hey they're in breach and according to that they will have to pay in breach and according to that, they will have to pay us to finish the the project for you and you can collect daily errors and emissions it was like hundreds of thousands of dollars we were actually not the wrong in fact

they were in breach but that cost me more money it was over a hundred thousand dollars to walk away and we were totally in the right so that was I mean that was my, my first bout in therapy I lost 30 pounds like I disappeared off the planet and that was that was probably the moment when it it actually stopped being fun like all together and I probably went a decade where I just didn't laugh like I could go see Jerry Seinville on a date and sit there all night and just be you know completely solemn and I really realized like s*** was broken the ROI was not there

the juice wasn't worth the squeeze and I was trading my time for money and even though I think at the end I was like 600 bucks an hour, this is a s*** deal and were you making money or was it just a machine kind of you know top line grows as overhead grows yes and there were the peaks and valleys right right so the one thing that we didn't do well at Zen man was we didn't have recurring revenue we were project based so we go to a quarter million dollar project to build an airline and airline website which is amazing are not that many airlines that you can cook it and the site we built is still being used by frontier so the one I designed you know 12 years ago so they just there wasn't enough it was like feast or famine and that lack of recurring revenue we would have amazing months but then we would have the next month we lose a hundred thousand dollars

oh man I mean what a stressful existence yeah it's great it's impactful to your health not just your physical but your mental health or I'm sorry not just your mental but your physical health yeah so tell me about that like like when did you realize I mean it sounds like you you started to realize right after your loss but like when was the moment when you said holy s*** this isn't working not soon enough but it of was there was a program through EO called the entrepreneur masters program and the first year there's an amazing man Warren Rustin he was speaking and I remember realizing you are trading your time for money and time is the only finite resource I have that we spend without knowing how much is left in the bank and six hundred dollars an hour is a s***** deal so I'm done doing that

and that was when I sort of pivoted and said I wanna create things that generate revenue to make the world a better place that don't require me to be grinding and what year was that 2017 so it was 19 years after starting the company wow and like how did you exist for those 19 years you know never-feeling like it was really working I mean completely like 1% EO vulnerable a lot of self medication through cannabis that was a huge crutch that I used and you know in the creative services and you can also use that as a justification like it's great you know I haven't expressed I don't smoke a joint I'll do my best work work and it's kinda b******* right I'm not saying you know don't don't have that outlet but don't have have that crutch don't use it as self medication and I think the biggest switch for me was

. You named your agency Zenman from early on so I imagine you know you've been down this path for a long time but it sounds like it was also the unlock later on so trace me your path and then like when you actually made the switch and yeah I was a devout atheist my whole life and just like God doesn't exist you guys believe in dragons and fairies this is stupid and when I was in college I was a bartender and you know I would I don't even want to say how much I drank probably on a nightly. The basis when you work in a bar and I'm breaks at school I'd be sitting outside you know in Santa Barbara overlooking the sea chain smoking like three camel lights before break would be over and like downing a mountain do

and there was this Buddhist monk that was auditing the tiny school I was going to the work with the Dalai Lama. And he started just asking these questions like why like why is that better to you than I chose atheism besides evolution and all of those other things like science being real was I struggled with why am I so lucky that I was born in the right place right. If I was born in the Middle East then I would think we're all going to be you know suffering because we're not worshiping you know Allah or all of the different beliefs and if we were born 2000 years

ago we would不 worshiping the sun in Egypt or so I just I didn't have the ego to say no no I'm the lucky one that's porn here I actually wanted. Wanted to look out. And say what are the different things and what really appealed to me is that you know Buddhist don't believe in a God. Yeah so and so did you start meditation at that time and what did your practice look like or more of just the philosophy I started at that time but it wasn

sort of the idea of how much of a religious person is living today. I think I'm not going to say look at it now because I'm not going toた everything I'm going to out there I think I'm going to And it's such a misconception is that well, no one can is the answer But it's but it's so pervasive that meditation is supposed to be this this, you know quiet experience Everyone was like why I'm not doing this, right? Yeah, yeah, when you are Right the only way it can be done

So so these you know kind of fundamental beliefs Sort of start forming college. They follow you through You know founding the agency, but it you know, it sounds like there was some you know Fairly you dark years kind of in in the middle here. Yeah, when did you first start feeling successful? Or you know what we're again, I'll go back to to Mindy. She has this woman that she worked with There was like a what is the energy masseuse?. What's that called the rakey rakey? Yeah, rakey masseuse and her masseuse had this nightmare that I had drowned and it was right when the oak journal Came out and I was invited to go on my first speaking tour And I'd done like Denver startup week talks and agency talks but not like motivational speaker, which I hate the term

but it's my job and I had I went mad with her and she said I had this dream that if you stay on your current path You're gonna die soon, but if you embrace this new opportunity. This is your life's purpose and I remember saying like embrace the essence of the bore on this and so I did a month in Europe and all over Asia and just every I just said yes to everything, you know, somebody offered me to come to dinner at their house after a keynote Yes, you want to go to the, you know, Batu caves and Malaysia. Yes I'm speaking How can I be of service? How can I embrace the opportunity that Anthony B the drink, eat the food, say yes to the opportunity?

But I've also realized when I'm not on the road when When I'm here, if it's not a f*** yes, it's a, no, so I'm very very guarded with my Limited time that I have none on the road. Yeah, I love this and and for me That's what the middle way is is actually about it's actually about inhabiting both extremes Not compromise. I think I think it would be and look I think there's you know moderation is certainly a part of the teaching but You know the way I view it is like inhabiting both extremes I want to go send it heli skiing and and travel the world, you know party and you know embrace the whole thing And then when I'm at home it really is sort of bunk mode. It's it's meditation and writing and Yeah, saying I try not to leave my house ever is

Kind of thing and I've seen a lot of people go down this path that it's not about giving up You know the the fun or the excess. It's just Embracing both and knowing when to shift. Yeah, Absolutely, how did you learn that? Oh, I mean years of accessing years of self deprecation probably And I would say like we you know talked about before we started recording It's it's all still a work in progress You know the other times when I don't do enough and times when I do too much and that's the fun of life right enjoying this little blip of time that we get hurtling through space and this Flesh-covered skeleton. Yeah, I couldn't agree more I want to go back to the the inflection point because I think this is really interesting for folks because you know

There are a lot of people listening that have built a successful company You know stood on the on the mountain of success whatever that meant to them They look out and they go is this really it? because my and my internal experience does not match by External success or what the world might view as success. It sounds like you're standing on that mountain at some point What would you say to that person? comparison is the thief of joy so I

Think that's the worst possible thing you can the worst possible thing you can do as far as finding happiness Again completely an ongoing work in progress, but it was probably you know in my 40s when I was like Is I'm not not gonna cut my hair anymore. I don't care what people think I am who I am and I'm comfortable on my own skin and Surrounding myself with the people that embody the same values that I do that lift me up and cutting This is probably a big piece cutting energy vampires out of my life cutting the people that have been Maybe with me since I was a kid, but we're not Making me a better person to be around I just had this discussion

I think that's it is asking of every commitment every relationship every agreement that you've made like is this still serving me because you know a past version of you made those commitments and you know in in my experience, you know coaching hundreds of founders and in my own life like Forty is the time you have to start getting rid of that stuff and going okay. What's actually important to me What do I want? What do I value and instead of living for everyone else's you know commitments that they place on you You is like What do I actually want and I think it's a time Yeah absolutely so How did you get the idea for the journal? How did you finally decide to let agency life go? What does that look like for you? So the journal was the EMP program and trying to figure out what could I do with the skills that

that I have on my own and That was the oak journal the program I did was teaching how to be the best version of yourself setting goals clarity of vision You know creating a be hag for your life and all of these tools to accomplish it So I took goals and distilled them down into a pay-by-numbers tool But it was serendipitous because after I'd returned from that trip to a Asia and you know where that I'd met in Peru Reached out to me and said hey, I want to I want do I want to buy an agency. I I said great Danny I'll tell you a couple you probably shouldn't look at because they're in lawsuits and some that're great He said no I want to buy your agency and so even though I cut 90% of my staff It was really like I'm not turning lights off, but like definitely the dimmer switch was was going down He was a sass company and he bought us for our client list our reputation so it was it was a perfect example of a win-win

You know that company went from being a big player in Latin America to entering the US market They had access to our role at the X it was such a good Company was even called Zen man. So like am I losing my identity and selling my my baby? Yeah, I mean this is so much of my work focuses on that post exit identity loss And even if you're ready to be done with the company objectively, yeah, they Psychedelics so I did I had do you think you've talked to Aaron Houghton? Yeah

And you know I think he's I mean his exit was much bigger than like much bigger than mine and His identity loss was much more significant and so you know being friends with Aaron and sort in seeing that before I went through it and The lessons that that Aaron learned along the way Josh would tree did a bunch of psil-a-sci-bin Sat around the campfire and then at the other night I was burned my last business card and said okay, I'm- This chapter is is done, and I'm stepping into the next chapter. So in an intentional intense psychedelic experience And honestly it worked. I never had that feeling of loss. It felt like closure and

New beginning. I mean yeah, what a what a fortunate thing to have seen a friend go through it because I - I think so often it's kind of blind siding because it there's you know There's exuberance and there's you know the finally doing the thing and then all of a sudden you're you step into the vacuum, and it's like Oh, no what next but and it also sounds like you sort of had what next already on the horizon I did and I also didn't which I think makes it even more Just sort of to see from outside like mine wasn't a you can just be done for life exit, right? But seeing people that do have those like I don't like my My grandkids don't ever have to do anything if they don't want to and still having that struggle is crazy to see so that

That I think made me be more acutely aware of Trying to avoid it. Back to the relationship with money this easy-go easy-come mentality Did anything change for you after the exit or when did you start to become aware That the the spending and that mentality might have not been serving you I've been aware of it Yeah in perpetuity, so yeah, but every time you in the city situation Yeah, when you when you like oh, it didn't come as quite as the check didn't arrive. It didn't clear You know post exit that was it was kind of like a do-over and so I took that as an opportunity to say okay You know this big chick came big check came I've got this earn out I can reset and just start a new foundation so I Kind of got a do over which most of us don't get in life

And so that that for me was there and in all fairness The do over was like 20 years of all-nighters and grinds and 100 hour weeks So I earned it. It wasn't a you know, following my lab situation But I don't expect to have another one again, and so that was it's kind of my reset and then rebuild It sounds like you had at that point the earned foresight to recognize Not to blow it. Yeah, which is rare. I wish I had that though that I could have used that information about 2019 So so you exit you reset and How does your new career start to take shape and unfold slower than I? Expected, you know all of us especially founders or we think it's gonna happen, you know ten times faster than it takes never heard of it

Yeah, but it it was a slow grind and just constantly constantly working the one thing that that I've been very different and my approach to speaking and being an author is I Try to add value not FOMO. So from a everything that I do, you know if it's you know, posting something on social or An article that I write it's it's not about how awesome my life is it's about how There's tools that you can use or something that can inspire you or a concept that I would like to share with you and I think That's more and then just the the hustle. Mindset or the look how great you can be If you have my life's like this, that's I think the worst thing to put out there is how great you are

I? really try to Do the opposite and just let everybody else know how amazing they can be and already are I think that's such a beautiful clarification because as someone who's been on this path of building a personal brand, you know over the last couple years Everything I speak about tends to the nuanced and it turns out there. There's not a lot of room for nuance and social media, right? It's a lot easier to say take step my step one two and three and your life's going to be amazing and and it sounds like you found a really great Approach can you impact that just a little bit more because yeah, it strikes me that you are not the attention-seeking Tight right and that's been a limitation of mine, right so what advice would you give me on this So this is interesting because the book that we're you know that's on the table the zen of business is my second book the first book to promote it

Ryan and Avery and I Set a Guinness world record for the longest public speaking marathon And we don't end all the money that was raised from book sales 100% of the proceeds from book sales during this day and a half that we were speaking non-stop to For that little plaque and you to set the confetti off and that's fun, but it didn't make the book a best-seller I hate the turn personal branding. I think it is b*******. In fact, I'm working on a book called your personal brand is b******* And the reason is I think most people are in

So she helped me Me I've been working with Kimberly for a year and a half and I went from like 800 followers They were my friends and you know friends to 120,000 and it was authentic I shared things that I thought were valuable and when the book came out. It was a bestseller So the the power of creating an Organic following I'm not gonna say personal brand is when you do create something You have that built an audience that you can plug

If you don't do that it would be it would destroy you one of my greatest pleasures is Zingin followers on X back when they when they drive by You know hate on my post and I work four hours on So I've had like I had a woman say do you think this bozo really dresses like this with the glasses and cardigans I'm like and my response was like, you know, and her name wasn't Karen, but let's just say Karen

Hate on end up performing the best which is sadly ironic Totally. I said to be you definitely. Yeah, you get a few to be somehow it might as well be sending good vibes if you'd let it get to you, it's you're never gonna get any it Kim has a good point like hey you've You're getting this hate because you have over a 100,000 followers, right? If you, you had 84 people following you then yeah, mom's gonna love you But see it as a milestone of achievement and that was a great perspective Yeah, so so Talk to me about the second book and and How you came up with the concept and and and kind of What because the Zen of business is an amazing title What does that mean to you? It's applying the applying ancient Eastern wisdom to modern business and it really goes like we, we were talking about the

the four noble truths and then the eight full path and then it takes the Eight concepts, you know, right understanding right livelihood right speech right concentration and un-packs those with Not just a Buddhist belief but also how it applies to business and then it follows up each chapter with an Eastern concept right speech is a great example, right effective communication, especially as a leader is the most underdeveloped skill in In people that lead companies today and so understanding how that applies not only your business, but even your relationships and your children and your partner So it just takes everything and breaks It down and applies that the tool that's existed for thousands and thousands, thousands of years to help somebody

Make money, but have better happier employees that are healthier and you know do good with your customers and leave the world a better place I think, think it's so needed The Buddhist path, but here's where I struggle and this is this is you know sort of real time is, you know As I've given up the illusion of not enough as I've been as I've walked, you know the meditation path and and done healing, you know, there is sort of At least what appears to be a conflict between giving up the The dirty fuel the chip on the shoulder I'm going to show the world energy and then showing up and and you know still

Achieving in business and and having motivation. Do you address that in the book or how? How do you think? Yeah, yeah Actually, there's a quote from Bruce Lee in the book and Bruce Lee would say having goals isn't about keeping score It's about having direction and I think where those those goals start to create desires that create suffering is when we attach A scoreboard to it as opposed to you know, I I do want to have a New York Times best-selling book this one made it to Amazon next is USA today, right? There's this this stepping stone to get there and it's a goal But if I never achieved that goal, I'm still gonna be proud of the results that I. I got I think It's also in the book one of the best sayings is that one of life's great Greatest tragedies is not that people aim too high and miss but that they aim too low and hit

So I'd rather shoot for the stars and end up of the moon then you know shoot for a hilltop and get there Yeah, and and how do you? separate that from self-worth right if they could you if you set a big goal and I don't make New York times even if that was your lofty goal Like how do you keep that from kind of creepinging in I? I? I being celebrating wins right like being proud of yourself. We literally we're just talking about this in forum two days ago and Everybody in forum is high achieving and we're all setting goals and accomplishing them But many times we're struggling because we're comparing ourselves to others right Okay. Okay, well, I've published two books That's more than most people are gonna do so even if I never make the New York Times bestseller list still

Being proud of myself and and having gratitude for the accomplishments that I've I've achieved instead of Like well alright Tucker max as how many bestsellers and he's kind of a d******* right no offense Tucker I've read your books, you know you would say that about yourself Yeah, I mean yeah, he's he's self of it. Yeah But that's his books right and that's the story he's telling and and but yeah Just being good with who you are and I think only, trying to be better than yourself yesterday And never comparing yourself to somebody else because as soon as they even say the name like Oh, he, he's got three best sellers like s***. He's actually way ahead of me in the race But then and I have no idea but I think about my my boys like I'm winning right and I have no idea if

He's married kids are any truly have no idea But I know I have two best kids in the world and I'm winning in my heart to Tie it more deeply into into Buddhist concept. How do you think about desire versus attachment and And I'll frame is because Again kind of like meditation. I think people get non-attachment wrong is I should float above it and not have any desires. Yeah, so so how do you separate those two or reconciled at I think just being actually grateful for what you have a Like cars I've always liked cars right my dream car was Range Rovers and when I finally had one right after I got it. We got pregnant and my ex had a

Hond which is not as safe as a Range Rover when you have a baby so when our son was born I need to be grateful for this car that I actually Bought a new car. It was it was almost like a I'm not going to make this change until I can realize this car is nicer than 99% of the people on this planet will ever drive and When I can be Grateful for it then I can move on to the next thing without feeling like it was a Creating for me like when I when I

I've got a book coming out Later this year when I think about something like the New York Times bestseller list list, you know, I can I can desire to be on on the bestseller list Without. Without attaching to that desire without making it mean anything about me So, you know, it's it's only humans natural to be like well, I want like I want somebody to read this I poured three years of my life into this thing like if it sells 30 copies, I'm gonna be kind of bummed. Yeah, right like and So I so I can I can I can hold this with an open palm and just go. Yeah, like I I desire to do well And if it doesn't it doesn't mean anything about me, right? And that's the non attachment piece It's not eradicating, you know, worldly desires because it's that's that's not possible for humans kind of like

It's not possible to stop the thought stream. Yeah, well, I don't think I think that's when we would stop progressing as species as well Yeah, we need we need a actor sort of yeah and yeah, we're always improving and I know that Necessity is the mother of invention, but it's also curiosity and I think boredom and just having time to sit around and think about about what's possible So a question that I get often from, you know Hard charging entrepreneurs who are sort of looking at this path and let's say let's say that they're You know curious about the principles in your book The question I get often is it is yeah, this all sounds great, but what if I lose my edge What would you tell someone like that? I mean, why would you lose your edge by?

Being healthier and happier I would argue that you're losing your edge by burning the candle at both ends, right? The the hustlepreneur is only gonna get you so far and yeah, I mean I take coal plunges and I make sure I do my sleep and my gratitude and meditation and all the things that are Scientifically proven to help But if you think just by being hard in perpetuity, you're gonna continuously improve you're eventually going to Stop growing and start reverting you have to get new skills And the cool thing that I like about a lot of the the information of the book is now There's scientific studies that show it right It's not just the the long-haired hippie guy is saying how much happier he is with Buddhism or meditation And meditation has nothing to do with Buddhism You know there studies that show what is happening to your brains the neuropathways are being created the the additional time

that we're spending Truly magic and now we have the science to the results not just the testimonials so If there's a founder listening that said I've tried that meditation stuff I downloaded headspace it didn't really work for me How would you describe your process with with meditation and you know how's that path unfolded for you? I mean I had had the exact same thing and then it was it was TM right and going through TM org and actually Hiring somebody to teach me go through that three-day process of learning TM I would also say Google TM mantra by age and you can save the two grand and learn it You know, the the Transital Meditation Organization Believes that if you if you pay for something then you'll value it more and I agree

However, they did a study in the 90s called the Maharashi effect where 400 practitioners of TM went to Washington, DC They told the mayor. We're gonna lower violent crime in the city. He said when hell freezes over It's the hottest month of the year. It's always the highest Crime rate and you can Google this if you're listening violent crime was reduced by 26% I think it's still, still the lowest-violent crime on history in Washington, DC So if you've got 400 people meditating for two hours and it has that Profound impact on people that are just in their city Why wouldn't even if only a billion of the 8 billion billion people embraced it? Give this away like I'm a huge fan and Aaron Aaron we'd agree with this when I was helping him with

Founders first The more you give away I mean nothing nothing that's in that book is Proprietary Right like this is the life's experience in the books that I've read and the experiences that I've had coupled into my opinion But man, I'll Happily share with anybody if it'll help them be a better version of themselves or reach their potential I think that's the balance that any You know for me on the coaching side, but you know speaking creating content You know the way My book can absolutely impact the world for a Pretty low price. I mean, you know and and by the way, you know I planned offer for free for people that can't afford it, you know that that type of thing Lemon and then there's a certain percentage of people that they go

Okay I want to go deeper with Mike and they they can pay me a certain amount money And then there's people that want to go one-on-one and and so I can still make a living doing what I'm doing Doing and impacting the world and it's it's not out of balance, right? It. It doesn't mean I have to charge everyone It's actually feeding Your income right because you are giving something away that you're passionate about that you believe in that you value I'm sure that actually it really leads the people at the top echelon of you know your one-on-one work Exactly and it's it's, you know, people I think can view it My optically I'm like, why don't you just give it all away for free if you're if you really say you're helping people Oh, right, right livelihood, right? I mean even in the the noble eight full path like we still I have kids

You know I have override, you know I have to have a roof over my head We're not meant to live under a bridge and you know beg for rice I'm not a monk Yeah, right livelihood in right livelihood in bosom. It's you know, we don't harm ourselves. We don't harm others We don't create drugs or alcohol. We don't kill And You know, based based on this path

What does wealth mean to in to you now? freedom yeah, so Wealth is freedom. It's like time right like the ability to spend my time where and with the people I want In the places that I want to do Obviously if you want to travel if you want to have experiences Um, there's a cost associated with that But also, you know, I didn't exercise about six or seven years ago I'm sure you've read a bunch of joda spenza But he has this tool where you write intentions and feelings and when you're trying to sort of Visualize your future, but you don't know exactly what you want to do And it was you know 2018 when I was starting this and I wrote, you know, I want to get paid to travel

I want to I want to, I want to get paid to travel I want to feel like my world helps others reach their potential I want to not have an imposter syndrome, I want to not have imposter syndrome, I want to use my creative skills And it's crazy when you write things down how it comes to fruition But I'm going to be a motivational speaker, I think that's the worst job title there is Only second to life coach Yeah, they're pretty good, they're pretty equal I wonder if you can take us a little deeper on some of the concepts in the book and some of the core concepts

and how you view that as a western householder because I think a lot of times people can be I think, where a coroner, after recovering a body, he went to somebody's apartment and he had left a note that said, today I'm gonna walk to the Golden Gate Bridge

and if one person smiles at me, I'm not gonna jump. And, and obviously nobody did. And so, thinking about, it gives me goosebumps, but, but just thinking about saying the barista's name and asking how they're doing when you pick up the cortado in the morning. Or, you know, when somebody cuts you off in traffic, you know, thinking like, f*** you, you know, I'm a hurry too, or thinking, man, maybe that guy just got a call, his wife was in a car accident, he needs to get to the hospital. Like, if I can change my perspective the always expect that somebody has the best intentions at heart, even it's not, how does that hurt me, right? In fact, it actually helps me, because now I'm not bitter and pissed off-off and angry at that person. I'm actually sending them empathy and love, which only comes

to me. Yeah, absolutely, I, certainly find in my own life when I, when I focus on the four measurables and, you know, always just trying trying to, yeah, kind of the opposite of the fundamental attribution error, right? Which is assuming that I have, I have noble intentions and everybody else is out to get me or assigning the words. And it's wild, right? Because the reality is it doesn't change the nature of reality, at all. But it fundamentally al there's how you experience reality. 1000%. That's all we can do is our perception. Yeah, totally. So now we'll go back to the question that you stole from me. What would you go back and tell, you know, the version of yourself that was in the thick of it in the agency? You know, maybe, maybe 10 years in

realizing it's not worry. What would you go back and tell that guy now? Oh, you'll get through this. Yeah, I mean, it's that's one of the things that over all of the like stumbles and falls and like really, I don't know how I'm going to make it out of this. We always do there's always tomorrow. And Warren Rustan, the guy I mentioned earlier that taught me a lot of the tools that are in the Oak Journal, he had the saying that if, if the world took their problems and we all hung on this giant clothesline and I could see your problems and I could see his problems and everybody else's and you had to go and choose which problems you take back. Almost all of us are going to take our own problems back when we see what everybody else is really dealing with. Like no matter what you have going on,

I mean, I had foreclosure notices that were on my office that I was, you know, getting to the studio at 6 in the morning to make sure if there was a new one, I could take it off the door before an employee saw it. So they didn't know how bad things really were. I mean, things were bad, but there was somebody in a hospital kon that would cut off their left arm to trade problems with me with a terminal disease that had just lost a child with something that isn't even made my problems completely irrelevant. And when you compare your problems with the other people, it's pretty grateful for the s*** we have to deal with. Yeah, we have an amazing thought. If there's one thing you can leave our listeners with, I'll give you the final word, what's on your mind? What would you like to hear from the audience take away?

All of them can accomplish anything. All of the things people use as self-limiting the leaves or reasons why they say, I'm not going to accomplish this, I wasn't born into money, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, if you say that, you're right. But the truth of the matter is, anybody can accomplish anything. If we just every single day try to be 1% better than you were yesterday, make progress towards your goals and think in terms of decades and not years, you'll get there a lot faster than you expect. Well, this has been an amazing conversation. I deeply appreciate the work that you're putting into the world, and I look forward to seeing what unfolds from here.

Thanks, it's been aRB here, thanks for Rabami. All right, cheers, Keith. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Stories, and I hope this conversation sparks something for you. If you're craving more conversations like this, then I wanna invite you to check out Unbreakable Wealth. It's a private community and coaching experience for founders, entrepreneurs, and executives who are ready to explore money, meaning, and what actually makes a rich life. If you're ready to rewrite your money story and lead a life on your own terms, apply now at the link below. And if you you enjoyede this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a reveal. See you the next time.