Jon Bowerman: Finding Fulfillment Beyond Achievement

Full transcript

Automatic transcript, lightly corrected for names, with profanity masked. Some passages may contain transcription errors.

You get one, you get one shot you don't stick this out your life's over I grew this agency successfully if I wreck this I'll never have another shot your true self versus the self that's chasing money and success. What was that like? Restarting proved to me that I can I can do it again. I can do it again, and I can do it on my terms Jon Bowerman is a writer entrepreneur and lifelong builder who brings the heart of a parent and the mindset of an Entrepreneur to his work. He creates stories that inspire clarity confidence and Possibility helping others rethink what's possible at any stage of life throughout his career Jon. a builder designer and founder across marketing and technology including

Includinging serving as the co-founder of stealth a strategy first consulting firm helping leaders build brands that matter. He is the author of You're not law. You're just starting and shares practical tools through the everyday entrepreneur action guide His work is rooted in one belief It's never too late to design a life that honors the dreams of your inner child. I had gone Gone into engineering school because that's where the money was I turned my back on My art which was one of the greatest passions. I've had what it and what it was like Betraying this identity. Man. I hated it. You have to ignore Your passions and you you have to be a provider and you have to take opportunities that are given not earned. How do you?

Start to shift that over time. I don't just have to take on a client because they're willing to write me a check I can take on a client, because Do you feel successful now? Welcome to money stories where we have real conversations with founders about money Meaning and what makes a truly rich life today. I'm joined by my

So what are some of your early memories about money and how did those shape you one of the biggest memories is we didn't have it So it was always something that you chased after , you know grew up Grew up in a bedroom where barely the bed fit in it, but I had a bed. I had a bedroom So it's taught to be thankful for that and then so the money was It was the enemy of what you should desire in life is what I pretty much was the theme of everything, that I grew up around, which was that any if you desired money that was bad That was wrong. That's not where your heart should be

and so Wanting things that money could. Get you was also tied in Do you have any specific memories or Events that might have shaped your ideas about about money like a lot of people I had a lemonade stand That was that was my first introduction to me having the power to be able to produce it versus it coming from from something else and then you know, it was one of the earlier have is the lengths that you can go to to get it when it's unavailable one of those early stories was

having to Beating switch Didns fully understand at the time of What was going on but I could you I could feel the pick up on the stress and I think it really taught me at a young age that the the ends

Don't don't necessarily justify the means Meaning that as long as you can get it as long as you can get it you can you can make it work Then how you had to get there, you know, really doesn't really doesn't matter And How did that drive you to change your circumstances or become successful? I tried to try to drop out of college about 20 different times with different businesses that I had started I Had gone gone into engineering school because that's for the money was I turned Turned my back on my art which was one of the greatest passions. I've had something I的 I loved since I was just at a very young age. That's where I Began to get my first praise was through my art. I had. I had one of my biggest mentors in high school as my art teacher

you know, I love that guy and That was one of my first senses of real betrayal I I I I tried to I was supposed to go in the military I was I I I I I I I I graduated with an architecture. Degree never did anything with it. Because I was just trying to try and survive at that time. Yeah. And give me a sense of what it,

what it was like sort of betraying this identity. Art is such an important part of B, of your life, but you've got to get money. Give me a sense of what that's like. My mom is one of the most incredible artists I've ever met. She was a old-school in a lot of my hand techniques, things like that. And, she would relentlessly be making dolls and everything for craft shows. I grew up with art always being looked at as a side thing that dads work is the main thing that matters for for this family and mom. And mom's art is the thing that we allow her to have something on the side.

And so I think I always looked at that for the rest of my life. And that was that I need to follow in the path of my father which was don't give up this opportunity that you that you've been given. Because I hadn't earned anything. Growing up, Baptist meant that everything that I was ever fortunate enough to experience was because it was given it was not earned. It would have been huge for me to give up that. and art just could never be looked at as something primary in my life. So it always, I'll get around to it. I'll get around to it. But I'll have time for a side hustle. And what were some of your early business experiences and what was that like?

Yeah. Turned out an early offer to be part of the PayPal team when they were under 100 employees. because I didn't believe that the technology would work. I was wrong as I had that many times. was the first what we recognized was that the used bookstores were taking advantage of . Students we said, well, this would be be an exchange where students could sell books to each other. Made it quite a bit of money with that and being wise entrepreneurs the

didn't really pan out. When did you first feel successful? First felt successful going to a steakhouse and as you know, being at a steakhouse, there is a hierarchy of seating at a steakhouse. I was a, now I look back at a 26 year old kid going in with my wife to celebrate first million dollars of our company. And of course, at the junior table, against the wall, where it's a little colder. We got the junior waiter. Just starting, trying his best. And I asked for the captain's list and ordered at the time which was a $300 bottle of wine. And within about 30 seconds, the whole entourage of ownership

walked out from the back of the restaurant, the owner, the sommelier, the everyone and the owner introduced himself and said this bottle of wine does not belong at this table here. Here. And they showed me to, to be my wife to the most, most prominent table in the place, sat us down to the can to the bottle. And from that on out that we were treated, treated like royalty. And that was something that I hadn't really ever experienced. But that was, I was, I really felt like I'm the kind of person that can get a $300 bottle of wine. That's when I really, really kind of felt successful. You know, I know, I know there were some tough times leading up to, to, to that experience take me back to some of the harder times on the way up.

One of the most difficult times was, we had, I was working at a company and decided to leave that company. And two weeks later, found out we were pregnant with our son. Had that happened two weeks earlier, it might have changed the complete trajectory of my life. But I found myself five months later, with my company that I decided to start. And I distinctly remember a sales meeting. And knowing, that if I didn't make this sale, I was, if I didn't walk out of there with a check, I was was not going to have money to pay our mortgage, which was already a month and a half behind. And that was going to lead to potentially,

potentially losing our house. And itera was going to be this dad that's supposed to take care of a family, bringing a kid and not going to have a place to live. I wasn't leaving without that sale. That was, that was one of the most of the most stressful and difficult times. What did you learn, I guess, from, you know, this, this story that, that, you have to ignore your passions and you, you have to be a provider and you have to take opportunities that are given, not earned. How do you start to shift that over time? I always looked at art as the, as the literal way to, to monetize it, which meant I have to paint pictures, I have to do drawings, and I have to go to art shows,

and I have to sell them versus well, how could I integrate it into, into my life? How can it be a, how can it be a bit apart of, of who I am struggled so many years not even being able to figure out how to introduce myself to someone new, because I, I wasn't sure if you would accept me more, if you found out first that I was a chief technology officer, if I was a writer or an artist, would you accept me more if you found out that I was a marketer or an entrepreneur? So I would, I would really size up everyone that I met and say who, who is the John that they're going to accept most until I accepted that I'm an,

I'm an artist person for most, which means that there's not any one medium, medium and I love it's just even, even a spreadsheet can be a work of art, and, and really just kind of applied that. I will say one of the, even before the business most pivotal times in my, my my life where I really actually felt that my achievements and my performance weren the number one things that mattered to how people would receive me as a person was I left the engineering school I had decided to go into the architecture school and I applied I took full advantage of the school's academic probation policy I was out at many times and I got denied.

s. So I had already told my, my parent wasn't going into the military. I had left engineering school and now my entire life plan was blown up because I was denied for the architecture school well I put on a suit and I said, I'm not, I'm not taking denial as an answer and I went into the dean's office and sat there and I ended up sitting, sitting in the office for about six hours waiting for the dean's schedules booked brought me into the conference room and said I looked at this whiteboard and on the whiteboard of the names of everyone that was accepted you got this big list of accepted you got this big list of wait list and there on the list of denied was my name prominently the minimum GPA of everyone that was

accepted was like a 3.9 it was highly competitive then you had had me sitting there with a 2.4 over the course of two hours my essay I got lost right had the privilege of going to Germany learning about concentration camps and that's what talked about how the architecture those camps influenced me I talked about um the different ways that I felt like I could shift people's emotions through changing their environment and at one point the dean brought in one of my architecture professors was one of my biggest fans and and he couldn't believe that I wasn't in and he said he's not in he needs to be in eventually after about two hours there was about eight other professors in that room and they took a vote and the dean told me said you know what I hadn't really taken

college so seriously myself I struggled a lot he's like if you can tell me right now that you're focused on what comes next he's like I believe in you and they took a vote and it was unanimous that I was in I went from they erased my name from denied and I watched as one of the most so much my achievements my achievements weren't the the reason I got in it was it was myself it was the way that uh it of how deep I just was entrenched in the world

how did you carry that forward to to create more success I've always uh I think from there I understood uh, very early that it wasn't about I had the opportunity in architecture school to students with superior designs superior ideas land short because they couldn couldn't communicate that um and I really understood through that very early on that it is not so much about what you're able to create or whate you're able to produce it's about how much of that the other person hears and understands you know so many

come to find out until about six months after he'd been there that he was colorblind and he was in charge of designing everything for clients and and through those type of experiences I really like everyone sees this world in a different different way and I used art through my life to be able to bring people together around something beautiful and so I applied that to anything I had to communicate which was how can I bring most people around this and also accept that people are going to see it and hear it in different ways and I can't control that I can control what they're going to walk away with all I can do is put out what I believe is best and how does your view around money start to shift

as you become more successful? Money and wealth are so different. I consider myself as a kid looking back very wealthy I grew up very wealthy without much money at all I had parents that Encouraged creativityity I had parents that encouraged open debate at the dinner table I had I had parents that provided provided a dinner every night I had parents that loved me I had family that loved me I had siblings that I I got to go through life with I lost that through much of my in my 20s and 30s

the wealth, because I was chasing the the symbols, the symbols the symbols of wealth through money and then as much as I enjoyed the experience through that first $300- bottle of wine, the 12th time around it that void still existed and I couldn't fill it with that even if it was a $300 bottle or $3,000 bottle. Take me through the journey of the dissonance versus the self that's chasing money and success what was that like? My true self needs very little money to be happy. I'm happiest, happiest when I'm creating what I call my performance art my

hand sculpting on a public busy beach where I get to do that and and the great thing about that as a as a shovel and there's a enormous amount of free sand on the beach and it really really doesn't require much the chase after money was although I had it I didn, I didn't believe I was successful I really I really for most of my on paper I was incredibly successful. I did not feel successful. I didn't feel, I felt like. While I was helping so many people I wasn't, I wasn't helping myself. I wasn't helping the little boy that I used to be which was

it would make me so. Happy just to draw a little picture and give it to a little girl in second grade or third grade or something like that and just and to see see their face light up and be smiled and and I was helping a lot of thousands of people millions of people on a monthly basis and I wasn't I wasn't feeling that. Because what I how in the I was helping people was a way that would result in a lot of money but but it never it never fed my soul. What I'm hearing is. Money and success requires betrayal of self. We, my dad worked a lot.

We would have fun and that's when he would be himself during the week when he was working. He wasn't himself. He'd come back tired, exhausted. That wasn't my father. My father is one of the most joyous storytelling. Story telling animated people and during the week he he wasn't able to be that. And then when we had those Saturdays, that's when he could be that and that's when as 5 kids we loved it the most. And I just felt like that was the well you you sacrifice, you sacrifice, you sacrifice for the for the small slivers of immense joy that will will become available. But the idea that you live with immense joy

most of the time was. That's just that's not a phrase that I grew up with that I stuck with me for a long time was that's not realistic. And it was always that's kind of where I dismissed it that's that's not realistic realistic. So you're of building this highly successful agency along the way. But encoded in that is you sacrifice to be successful to make money with these tiny slivers of joy. How do you start to repadder in that or when did you know that something had to change about two years ago. And I looked in the mirror. And I just I didn't. Recognize myself of my I've always been in tune to color see a lot of color.

I love using that art. I would have described my eyes. I would have described my face as this like shell. And I really just didn't almost I almost looked like I was. Like I had passed. And I wasn't I was not at all happy about that. Which I felt like I was doing everything right. All right. I felt like I was just moving through the checklist of life. And why was it why was it still not producing overall happiness.

Yeah. So is there a moment that you can take me back to when you knew something had to . Change. After I sold my agency. I stayed on as CTO and the idea was I'm going to be a part of the next chapter of this company and I'm going to help help help grow it and I won't have all the problems of being the you know one of the two founders. A lot of those problems are going to go away. And I because I had built so much of the infrastructure the architecture of the company that the technology thing like that I believed I always believed myself as invincible.

is irreplaceable. And I showed up. One day and found out that my replacement had already been hired that I was to assume this new title in the company. I was to make an announcement to the company that it was my idea. I said I could you know what I could probably just mail this this in and maybe do some stuff more I enjoy on the side.

And that that that sounded like a good idea for about 48 hours until until I said now this is myself first. And this is not this is not putting myself first. And I decided to walk away. Where'd you go from there? Rekindled relationship with my founding business partner of the original agency. It was best for us to take a little time apart and reset our relationship through that process. I found out this is one of the people that I can trust most in the world. And we

restarted our new company without the burden of the baggage. But with the insight and, within two years, we had reached the mark of the first company that took us about 10 years to achieve. And that really showed me that you know that that go back to that earlier concept around don't destroy what you've been given. You get one shot. You know, if you don't go to the right college, you get one shot. Your life's over. If you're life's out, you're life's over. You get one shot. And I believe so much that man, I grew this agency successfully. I got one shot. if I wreck this, I'll never have another shot.

Rest the other way around. Restarting just proved to me that I can I can do it again. I can do it again. I can do it again and I can do it on my terms. I can do it in a way to a way that I don't just have to take on a client because they're willing to write me a a check. I can take on a client because it's the right fit. It brings alignment. And I can determine the way my life is shaped not the other way. My calendar is my tone. I learned through unbreakable wealth that it gave me the courage to put a four- hour block

all day Friday is your time

you know very very nurturing and empathetic little boy and that wasn't how I I had to show up as a warrior. I needed the world to see me as a warrior and vulnerability, was something that I hid behind that shell. I wanted you to see me as a warrior, this really tough person until I'd gone through a lot of work. And there was a distinctive moment at a baby bathwater event where I was about to leave the group because I did not believe that anybody would miss me if I left. And I showed up to dinner late because there was no one saving a seat for me.

No one's going to care. And I proceeded to find out that I was the attendee of the year. I thought everyone saw me as a sarcastic a**hole because that was my tough facade was man. I'm just this quick-witted. It's the a**holes that win in this world. And I asked you that very question. Like I said, I thought the world saw me as a sarcastic a**hole and you said no, we see you as someone who's completely different. And I think while I thought I was putting on this. This protective facade that was protecting this kind creative little boy, I think that's how I don't think I could actually hide that.

And I think that's how that was the reality of how people were seeing me. And once I looked in the mirror and saw myself as that, it really changed my perspective on who I believed I was. What was it like having this carefully manicured self-image that you thought you were doing a great job of projecting to the world and then finding out that that's not how you were seen at all? How did those two come together for. I felt like I felt like a failure

and immense regret of how many years and how much energy, went into protecting that and realizing it was never necessary. And how do you start to begin to reconnect with that version of yourself that you had? As I lead now with vulnerability in the way that I'm here to share, I'm here to bring what I have unfiltered. So I don't need to tailor that or I don't need to message myself

for the world. What allowed me to do some identity work is that the calculator of safety version of myself, the one that would never speak first in a group because he was unsure of if he would be safe if he did or if he would be accepted for what he had to say or what his perspective was. That that identity, that version of myself can take a back seat. It served me for so many years, but that didn't need to be how I led now. You go through, you build this massively successful company, you sell it off.

You had this reckoning where you were literally asked to betray yourself and your values. You chose the opposite route. How do you start to marry up your external success, the external, the external facade of success with how you felt internally? I was always chasing that and I was

at the finish line. I'll be the fastest driver to the retirement finish line of anyone you've ever met. You will see that as the epitome of success because once you retire, now you begin to live life. I've come to realize that I never want to retire. That was such a false goal as I build my life now, which is a life that I never want to retire from. Success is about waking up excited and falling asleep aligned with knowing that

I was meant to be here in this place on this day with these people, with my kids, that this is where I was supposed to be, and it wasn't about any particular thing getting done. It was just about living in today. What does wealth mean to you now? My health, big one. In many ways, freedom to pursue my artistic passions. Wealth is the freedom of my mind. Wealth is feeling like I'm wealthy. Even when I was wealthy, I felt poor.

If my income was $100 less in a month than my expenses, my world was ending around me. If my income was $100 more than my expenses, I was billionaire. I had unlimited funds. I would live life like that and then experience deep deep shame and guilt as I had to face the consequences of doing that. The emotional turmoil that I put myself through that roller coaster and everyone around me, my energy would show up like that. My relationship

with my kids, even if I try to hide it, as I found out I'm not100 very good at hiding things, is that that would show up and even have all the right symbols of wealth, but still just not feel it. And how do you start to repattern that relationship with money and success? There was this idea that if I had accumulated something, that means I had to keep and maintain that thing forever. Meaning if something excites me, say it excites me for a month,

and that thing no longer excites me, if I get get rid of anything, it means that I am I'm turning down my success. All of those things were my measure of success is look at the list of things that he's been able to accumulate instead of releasing myself from the burden, from the burden of those things and I love the expression which is, you know, no longer obligated to be the person that I said I was five minutes ago. I'm no longer obligated to serve the the goal that I'd set five minutes ago as things change.

I've watched you through this incredible journey of unleashing the artist within. What has that been like for you? It has opened me up to a life that I never would have imagined was possible. Recently, about four months ago, I did a sand sculpture on the beach that really even took that a step further. I loved doing sand sculpting on beaches, especially as kids get to drop from this. I love people seeing that this sand has existed here forever and all I'm doing is moving moving the sand in a different shape than it has existed for so long

and for people to see that, to breathe life into something. But I but I'd always approached it as, let me think of I can create that people are going to enjoy the most. What is going to appeal to the greatest number of people. About four months ago, I decided I was feeling a immense level of sadness and I decided to create something for me outside of how anyone else perceived it. And still to this day, every time before I any piece of art, I go through about five minutes of

man, what an imposter you are. You have no idea what you're doing. You are probably going to mess this up. And I just I shovel because that shovel that getting in touch with my body instead of living just up in my mind where all these things can circulate and be toxic, getting into my body helps helps release that. And I decided I'm just going to let my emotions come out in this sculpture exactly what it was going to be. And a woman walked by me 10 minutes into just

to. But that's what she felt and I said that's what that's what I'm feeling right now. And yes this. This is this is a woman crying. And I proceeded to make a mermaid on the beach that had been trapped and was crying. And that was one of the most impactful sculptures that I've ever made. People would walk up and start to tear up themselves. And that was such a such a big moment for me because it opened it opened me up to the impact that I could make in the world with with my art. Not by thinking about what people want or what people need or but I have enough lived experience. I have enough. I am enough

to create something beautiful just because it comes out of me. So knowing having all this experience you know knowing what you know now what would you go back and tell yourself 10 years ago. You would be dancing in the streets. And that's if you knew who you're going to become in 10 years. And I would tell myself that the work that you're doing is not about marketing is not about technology. It's not about clients. It is. It is that you are surrounded by people

that have faith in you that you don't need to prove or earn but they believe that you are are going to lead them. And they have chosen to share this piece of their life with you. And that is really the work that you are doing is them through through their lives lives and all of the results that you need to see are in the people they're becoming and in their faces I would have loved to know that 10 years ago because I'd written myself off as not a people person.

I am not a people person. I am an a****** and I was anything but but I just didn't believe that. That's who I would convince myself 10 years ago. And what you tell someone listening who might be hearing this journey and maybe they're resonating with the idea that they look externally successful but they're not feeling internally successful. What would would you share you share with that person? Look outside what you think is your closest ring of success which is how many awards have you gotten, your network, all of that. But

take that to the second, the third ring which is how have you impacted the lives of the people around you? Now imagine the people that you have impacted. And now by impacting the people people around you, just imagine what that is doing for the people around them and then the people around them. One of the things I love about sand sculpting so much is there's always a little kid five years or younger who wants to help, always comes up and helps. So I bring a little shovel I bring a pen. When I'm done with this help, I always give the shovel and pen to the little kid

who when I give it to him that shovels like Thor's hammer. I have come to learn that some of those kids, even some of the kids that I've done illustration sessions with, I've heard later from parents that their child wants to be an artist, their child wants to create. And that is so my initial, when I look at successes, how how many people took a picture of the sculpture and enjoyed it? How many followers do I have on Instagram. Instagram because of the sculpture when I think about inspiring a kid to want to pursue art and forever that child's life has changed.

And he's going to want to make a sand sculpture. Imagine the people that are going to see that and get impacted by that. And he might inspire someone, someone else he or she might inspire someone else. And when I think about that energy of inspiration that I've put into the universe, it is a success is immeasurable. And I think more of us do that than we give ourselves credit for. I'll give you an example. My wife is a very very accomplished pre-do yoga practitioner. And sometimes marketing, getting customers struggles, but she has worked with over a thousand moms. Those thousand moms have had

multiple thousand thousands of kids each, but you get it. And she instills the confidence in moms to not just listen and take direction from everyone around them was telling them, but to be the advocate for themselves. The influence on the universe that she has created by these moms being the advocate for themselves and their kids seeing their mom be the advocate for themselves growing up in a environment where they themselves can be the advocate for themselves. the success of that cannot be measured on a balance sheet, social engagement, anything like that. And that's what I would encourage other people to do is let your your let your mind wander into what is the impact that the impact that you're making is. Yeah, the concentric circles. The concentric circles.

You also released a book this year. I'd love for you to share a little bit about that. Yeah, you're not, you're not lost. You're just starting. How do I get anything possible? I have two teenage children. And the most common question that circulates around the school, especially with my son, is where's he going to college? Where's he going to college? That that question for me is visceral because it brings up a lot of I've turned my back on myself answering that same question when I was his age. And I am here to help guide him in a way that is not the same path that I took.

And I do not believe that where is he or our kids going to college is. The number one question that we've been thinking but I could go back to myself and have 16 is how do you like creating joy in this world? How do you like serving others? Which is far more important than where are you going to college? And as I took this concept further is really that's the, that's what I believe is the spirit of the entrepreneur is just the enjoyment of serving others and creating joy and however you manifest that. And there's this misconception about entrepreneurship that it means you have to start a business. And I don't believe that that is the case. I believe that anyone can show

up. I realize that throughout my whole life I've showed up as an entrepreneur and I was an entrepreneur before I ever started a business. You know, I'm John. I'm the CEO of the John Barman company, whether that company's an LLC or anything like that. But being the CEO, of myself means that I live like an entrepreneur, which is, you know, I, I'm not afraid to hear no, I'm not afraid to ask. You know, there's a lesson in every loss. There's so many different lessons there. And I, wanted to create this, this guide that my kids could have for, for the rest of their lives, meaning you don't have to, you don't need the pressure

of making this one decision. Guess what? You don't have one shot. You got a thousand shots. You've got a million shots if you want. And likely what you think you are going to be doing, because of any of us, we'll go back 20 years. I have no idea of the 20 year from now person is that, what I'd be doing. And so likely you're going to have to change. You're going to have to pivot. But as long as you're staying true to yourself and applying, you know, what entrepreneurs know, you can really make anything, anything possible. And specifically for, for my daughter, the main, main characters in the book are women, because I believe women should be running the world. I think we would all be better off.

Um, and I wanted her And every minute with my passion is a minute I take away from being a mom. A minute being a good mom is a minute I take away from my passion. And through the book, I wanted to convey that, that you can be both. As I've seen, as I've seen many, many women do. And I, and I wanted,

I wanted my daughter going into this world knowing that she didn't have to make a choice that they really, she can make anything possible. She has the power to define what that looks like. What a beautiful gift to give your children. And so many other kids who read that book. Do you feel successful now? Tremendously tremendously. Why? I figured out who the way I am.

I've developed the courage to honor that person. I live life going in in directions that I define. My relationship with money specifically is healthy. I'll tell you a story, a short story of my transformation in this. And while I wrote it, spicy ricket Tony, for years through college,

I had to make conscious decisions. I there are many, most weeks I would have about $20 grocery budget for the week. A lot of Robin noodle, a lot of grilled cheese, a lot of days where I just would wait till the next day. And so $20 in my mind was a strong symbol very early on. And. There's one of my favorite coffee shops. Scribe it. I drive by this place. I take my kids in one of the most the best private private schools in the country. Drive by our world-class country club. Live in one of the most affluent communities. Incredible sports car. All of this. And after I dropped my kids off at the school, they would have this pasta called spicy ricket Tony.

And unfortunately it cost $18. I would never buy it. I would look at that and say how irresponsible to spend almost a week's worth of groceries on one pasta dish. Like that is, I am so irresponsible. I cannot do that. Even though I know I love it. I know I love it, but that would be so irresponsible. And through my transformation of having a healthy relationship with money was... that I could release

each again to feed my kids $18 on this past. I mean, that was a real, tense feel my shoulders, my heart, my jaw around getting that. And I don't anymore. Now I look forward to it. It's such a beautiful story. John John, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your wisdom and your gifts with us. Where could people find you? Where can they find your work? Maybe by your book? Yeah, you can go to johnbowerman.com or write for the book. It's notloststarting.com. And I have a free, even if you don't get the book, which I hope you do.

But I created a, it's called a everyday entrepreneur action guide, which is a step in to living life like an entrepreneur. Which means you don't have to clear your job. You don't have to make this giant leap, but you're just small steps of how to ask, ask, how you feel like you should be compensated more, and what you do, ask. You know, just some small steps to start to bring an idea to life, things like that. That's available because I really hope as much as possible get to experience the freedom of defining how you show up.

John, thanks so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you deeply, and you're a you're a beautiful human, my friend. Oh, you too, too, as well. I'm like, man, this wouldn't wouldn't be possible. It wasn't through this work. Cool. All right, you guys, by the book. Thanks, John. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Stories. And I hope this conversation sparks something for you. If you're craving more conversations like this, then I want to invite you to check out unbreakable wealth. It's a private community and coaching experience for founders, entrepreneurs, and executives who are ready to explore money, meaning, and what, what actually, actually makes a rich life. If you're ready to rewrite your money story and lead a life on your own terms, apply now at the link below. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. See you next time.