You Don’t Have to Suffer to be Successful

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Automatic transcript, lightly corrected for names, with profanity masked. Some passages may contain transcription errors.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Inner Circle with Kevin and Mike. Let me tell you how this podcast works. So Mike and I, you know, daily, if not hourly, have text conversations just about life. I mean, that was kind of the impetus for doing the show and calling it the Inner Circle. And occasionally, a topic will come up that sort of hits a nerve with both of us. It's something we both thinking about a lot. And so we say, let's flag this for an episode. And this is one that probably has been the number one topic we've been discussing lately. And I'm going to frame it this way. Here's the prompt. And then I'm going to ask you, Mike, to riff on it a little bit. But how do you discern the difference between necessary resilience and unnecessary suffering?

I mean, this is such a poignant question, I think, in both of our lives. And it's a tough one, right? And because for so deep in the suffering,

really hard stuff from my military serviced to building a business, to endurance racing, getting to the top levels in Ironman, and I would really push through. I used to have a quote on my Facebook wall back when that was a thing. This said, make friends with pain and you'll never be alone. You're the cliche. Totally. But that's just literally how I would get through an I'man or a 100-mile mountain bike race. I would just go deep in the pain cave. This idea of get comfortable being uncomfortable, I was the king of being uncomfortable. I was happy when I was deep in suffering. But at some point as I started down the path of personal development, unwinding some of my core wounds and traumas and unpacking

sort of this dirty fuel that made me so successful, I realized this is not a healthy way to live. And even though it was creating a lot of external success, it was killing me on the inside. Well, as I start to repattern, and I'll let you go, as I start to repattern, I think I'v found myself trending more toward laziness, like trending more toward giving up. And I've been in a season of ease and by the

end of the day, I've been in a high-performers. We're just wired that way. And I'm like, do you really need to suffer to be successful? And also, the real the real question behind that is, what is success? That's basically my story. I came out of college and put my head down for 20 years and made it all the way to the top of the corporate world, check, check, check, all the boxes,

and realized that was miserable. It looked like success. A lot of people would call that society would call it success, but it wasn't. So there's this really interesting dynamic here of, we only grow by doing hard things and struggle is at least part of the reward. But at what point does struggle become suffering? The reality is what I'm trending toward at least is, as with most things in life, the answer is in the middle way. I still want to know that I have the ability to do hard things. But I want to choose my hard things and everything doesn't have to be hard. And so I think this comes down to a question of what's worth suffering for? And for me, at least in this season of my life,

like building my first business, building my mountain of success, even my endurance racing, it was really all about me. Like at the core level, it was all about me and my success success and what could I get out of this. And as I've shifted more the core level, it was all about me and my success and what could I get out of this. As I've shifted more toward this mid-life chrysalis, which is a term I love, I have really shifted to how can I can use this pain that I went through, the suffering I endured, to try to inspire others, help others heal, help people get off the hamster wheel, really live the life of meaning. And that's why helping other people to wake up and fully inhabit their life is worth suffering for.

It's worth putting in the reps. And that's why I chose my word of the year this year, devotion, because I define devotion as discipline without self-harm I have discipline and space. I can look in the mirror and say you better get up and work out. I did it for years. I don't want to do that anymore. I want to work out because I like the way my body feels. I know I'm at my highest service for others when my body is fit and feels good. Same concept, totally different energy. So that's my question. What's worth suffering for? Yeah. And I'm reminded of, I think it was Chris Williamson, the podcaster, who asked the question, what would life look like in easy mode? I think it's worth contemplating because I actually like that you use the word lazy

because it reminds me of that when I first started rock climbing back in 1999, I went to a gym, was immediately hooked, and I hired a climbing guide to take me outside the next weekend. I was what would we call in climbing an over stoker. Super motivated but no knowledge of the sport. But anyway, he said something to me that that I still, I repeat all the time, and I think about it all the time which is when you're on the rock, you want to be as lazy as possible because that's actually the most efficient way to get things done. I think that applies to a lot of things in life. We don't have to choose to be at max effort all the time. There is a notion of like, what's the easy path here? Like the goal is actually to achieve the objective

in the case of climbing, like getting to the top and clipping the chains while exerting the least amount of energy. This is probably the central struggle in my life right now because last June I started a new business called Bolt, and I started it at a phase of life where I've got, I'm not willing to compromise my lifestyle like I was in my 20s and 30s. And so the question is, is there an easy mode or at least a moderately difficult mode that allows me to maintain boundaries and not screw up my life basically while building this business, which I am passionate about, but I'm simply unwilling to grind away for 80 hours a week these days.

Here's the other thing though about the hustle till you die mindset is I actually think it implies an inherent lack of, of discernment and lack of wisdom. Like when you're a first time founder, you actually have no idea what works. So you just do everything and throw everything at the wall and hopefully your effort will make up for all of the mistakes you're making. But now as you've gathered wisdom along your path, like you should have really good discernment for the things that actually move the needle. And I would offer the like, you can

Like those are the things where I put maximal effort, but it's maximal effort into a creative pursuit, which feels a little different than hustle mode. Yeah. And actually, when we were discussing this topic, you reminded me that I recently abandoned my first climbing project ever. So in climbing, when you're trying to work a really hard route, and it takes many, many attempts in many days, we call it a project. And, you know, I'm still climbing as hard as, ever tackling ever harder projects. And I tackled this project in the Flatirons called Sutton, S-O-T-E-N, and it would be the hardest climb I've ever done. And I put a bunch of days in on it. And, you know, I'm like, I've really learned climbing has taught me to enjoy the process.

But on this particular climb, I reached a point where it just started feeling like work, like suffering, like the hike up to the base is the pain in the butt. And just like getting on the routes, a lot of logistics and just hard work. And I actually abandoned it. And that was a big deal. It sounds like a small thing, but that was a really big deal for me because. Because it's the first time in my life, like I'm like a dog with a bone, man. I get on. It's the first time in my life I've really, like, consciously abandoned a project. And I may come back to it at some point, but I think it comes back to your point around like it just felt like it wasn't worth the suffering anymore. Yeah. And what it really gets down to is a question of alignment, right? So, you know, what are my values? And what actions are aligned with those values?

You know, no matter how much I love writing, no matter how much I love coaching, like some days it feels like work, right? But when I push through, there's always this end result of service that makes the feeling worth it. Because it's no longer about me. I know I can actually push through the hard times on the days when I get up and maybe I don't feel like doing it. There's a bigger goal than myself. I'm connected to something greater than self. And I think that's what makes suffering worth it. And climbing is such a, you know, it's a huge passion for you, but it is ultimately a selfish endeavor, right? In some ways. And so, when it starts to suck, like what are we doing here? Like, this is supposed to be fun. And, you know, the real fun is the growth.

Like, no matter if it's a building a company or a career or rock climbing, you know, you're in it for the growth. . But at some point, if it becomes, you know, 80% suffering and 20% joy. Because I was going to come back to the point you just made around, I think there's two important points. Number one is as good as it gets is doing things that are aligned. And you and I are both fortunate that we get to do most of what we do is aligned. But it still involves hard, unpleasant work. And I think, you know, that's a piece where I'm trying to find balance around like, what does that part look like? You know, everything I do at this the stage, I pretty much won't do anything that's not aligned. But how do I hold myself accountable

to doing the necessary work to get the outcome or the growth that I want? Yeah. And, you know, this is something I wrestle with, right? Is like, what would it be like to start another company? I know you're on that path right now. And I can tell you like quite frankly, I don't have the energy for that right now. Like, I know what it takes to make a company successful, at least in that startup mode. And I love to think I would be more efficient and better at delegating and use all my lessons learned. But there is still some elbow grease that is a requirement. Unavoidable. Yeah. And so it's been really informative for me to kind of watch you bump up against some of these same things and go, like, how would I deal with that and then use that as a mirror in my own life of like,

you know, I am incredibly passionate about what I do. You may say many things about me. I care about what I'm putting into the world. And I know I could crank up my effort that

to not only yes, but hell yes. And I'm still firmly in that court, but that doesn't mean that it's not a struggle. Like the, the of the things I struggle with are the things I struggle with. And that's going to always be the case. Yeah. I mean, and you know, I happen to know how much you care about the mission and, you know, testosterone and how it literally changes lives. I mean, I don't think it's a far cry to say like, your mission is changing men's lives from a health perspective. And so it does make some of it worth it, but you I've crafted really great lives. Like we wake up in the morning and do what we want to do. Yeah. And comfort is addicting, man. I think you've said it really well. You have some, you say something to the effective.

Like you leap out of bed every morning to get to work and there are things you have have to do that suck. Yeah. both things are true. Both are true. I mean, I still hate paying taxes. I still hate answering email. I mean, and it doesn't, it doesn't ever go away. And that there's another of beautiful Zen koan that that I often use that you have have adopted. And I love so much, which is before enlightenment, sweep the floor, you know, chop wood and carry water or sweep the floor depending on the lineage. And after enlightenment, sweep the floor and finding joy and devotion in sweeping the floor like sweeping the floor doesn't go away. It doesn't matter what you've accomplished. It doesn't matter how much you've healed.

It doesn't matter, you know, how passionate you are about your project. There's there's some floor sweeping that needs to occur. And can I fully inhabit the moment when I'm when I'm sweeping the floor and can I find joy and presence even in that? And guess what? Sweeping the floor is all there is anyway. And it turns out that a very small percentage of our life is spent on peak moments like, you know, having sex, you know, being on an exotic vacation, whatever. That's not life. Life is sweeping the floor. And so so if you can't find joy in that, you can. Can't find joy. Totally. I mean it how we spend our days is how we spend our lives.

And it is the bulk sweeping the floor. And I think the greatest mystery that I am really enjoying. I'm unraveling at like at this current moment in my life is finding more joy and presence in the mundane. 100%. Yeah. And again, that's all there is anyway. And I will tell you that being a little bit. Older than you that really hits you hard. Like you start asking these questions, you know, and you're I'm in my mid fifties. And it's not like a, you know, you're in your mid fifties. And you're in your mid fifties.

I'm just agreeing this out and hopefully our incurrent rambling resonates with some of you guys that maybe on the same path because I don't have the answers, but man I'm having fun trying to figure it out. Well, I think all we're trying to do is spark the questions. Right. Allez. Because you don't get the answers if you're not thinking about it, and so some of these. You have to wrestle with for years, if not a lifetime. All right. That's it for this episode. We will see you guys this episode.