Why Moderation is a Myth

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Automatic transcript, lightly corrected for names, with profanity masked. Some passages may contain transcription errors.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, as always joined by my co-host here, Kevin Dahlstrom, a member of my Inner Circle. And the whole point of the show is just having the conversations that Kevin and I would be having anyway. And just hitting the record button, today is a is a really fun topic. Kevin wrote a post. I'm just going to read here. There are many types of fun and summer in conflict with each other. So you have to choose. I've lost interest in the type of fun that makes life worse. So, Kevin, what inspired you to write this post? What does that mean to you? Yeah. I mean, what you just read is sort of an excerpt from a bit of a rant I went on earlier. And there's just like ongoing debate on X about like this idea of like being pretty strict and

disciplined versus like, hey, live a little. What's a couple drinks matter? What's a couple, you know, what's a skipped workout matter? And I have to tell you the older I get, that the more of an extremist I become, probably in all ways, but in particular around habits. And one reason is that I found it's, it's actually easier to be extreme about habits than to kind of be wishy washy and to try to try to exist on that slippery slope where you're always like fighting the urge to drink or to not work out or, you know, pick your pick your habit. And so, you know, you can definitely make a case for, hey, you know, everything in moderation. What I find though is in practice, humans are pretty terrible at moderation. And

because drinking is always the example I used, I actually looked up a couple stats because I was like, how good are people actually at moderation? And there was like a, a Gallup survey where it was a bunch of people who like, it was a self reported. So I'm guessing it was like underestimating the real numbers, but of all people that drink something like 60% drink at at least weekly and 25% drink, daily, which is that was the more shocking number to me. And it just goes to show that like, I call it the myth of the occasional drinker is like, I think there are people who like, I mean, myself, I drink, but it's like three times a year. Right? So that truly is an occasional drinker. Most people are not that. So I think for

most people, when I even include myself in that, it's much easier to just say no. And, you know, I, that, that line about, you know, I've lost interest in the type of fun that makes life worse, you know, there, there's lots of ways to have fun, like going out with the boys, having a bunch of drinks and staying up till three in the morning is fun, but also getting up really early and going for a hike is a lot of fun. And in some some ways, for obvious reasons, those are in a conflict with each other, you know, both are fun, but at some point you have to make a choice. And to be honest, like the, the, the hangover, the, the second order effects of just doing things that are fun, but not necessarily healthy, aren't worth it to me

anymore. And so I've become pretty radical about just, you know, doing fun things that compound compound and make life better. So I'll stop there and get any thoughts you have or reactions you have to that? Tons. So first of all, I agree with you on the drinking front, you know, as someone who, you know, I drank two to four glasses of wine every night for like 20 years from the time I was, until I was 42, I quit drinking three years ago, totally. And it was for this exact reason that you're talking about is that I tried every moderation program in the book. I would be like, okay, I only drink when I, I go out at restaurants. I only drink on the weekends or whatever. And I would tell myself that I would do these things. And like two weeks later, I'd find myself drinking every night again. Right. There was

just this habitual five PM ritual of pulling out a great bottle of wine. And look, I, I was not drinking to access every night. But like, I would, I even take offense with the term alcoholic. Like I don't think that's what I was, but habitual drinker certainly lands for me, one of the best decisions of my life. I didn't drink for almost two and a half years. And about six months ago, my whole intention was to change my relationship with drinking. Okay. Can I repatter in this? And, and truly it did. I mean, I, I counted as one of my top three life decisions, but I also hate absolutes. So about six months ago, I said, okay, it's been a long time. Like,

what would it look like to try and enjoy a glass of wine, we better. And I will tell you it's a slippery slope, man. I thought I could drink two or three times a year. And you know, I found myself drinking more and more often. And so it's a total slippery for me. I'm with you. It's not worth it. But, but here's how I like to think about these things. Maybe I'm a little less extreme than you, except for I had at both extremes. So, so I like to be either full sand or monk mode. And I sort of, I borrow a term from endurance athletics, which is periodization. I like to think of my life in periodization. So I'll go full sand off the rails, not really working out that hard, you know, drinking, partying,

like traveling, like whatever it is. And then come back and just lock in. And that's, and I'm, and I'm entering a season of being locked in again. Man, it feels amazing reading, writing, meditating, riding my mountain bike every day. I eat cleaner. But I tend to find, and this is what I'd be interested in is I start to go stir crazy kind of either way. If I've been doing monk mode for too long, I start getting the edge. And if I've been partying for too long, then it's like, it's, oh yeah, clearly this is done. So that, that indication is clear. But even the monk mode, when I start going too long, I'm like, all right, I want to blow off some steam. And you know, and I'll do a month or two, and it depends on what's going on in my life. It's funny. Who would imagine the former fighter pilot would be full sand or

monk mode, right? Like you come by it very honestly. It's funny though, because you and I in some ways are the opposite on that. Like I'm the opposite. I'm literally, the, like my happy place is having a routine that I love, and doing the same thing to over and over and over, because I can't get enough of it. The example I like to use, my wife and I went on a two week hiking trip in Tuscany, and kind of like the small villages across Tuscany. And literally, all there was for lunch in these villages was the freshly made local bread and a salami. And we had bread and salami and cheese every day for lunch for two weeks. And you know what, when we got home, we were like, I want more. That's how good it was.

That's just an example of like, that's the root, that's routine. But what's interesting is, I think both of our lifestyles require a high degree of discipline, because I was going to say, a lot of people would not be able to switch modes like you can. And that's where I think it gets really tricky. And a lot of people would not be able, would get bored or stir crazy doing the same thing every day like I do. And so I think it's interesting that the common thread between these seemingly super different approaches is a high degree of discipline, right? Yeah. And definitely, I think good habits beget good habits. Like, you know, earlier this year, I wanted to get super fat fit for the heli trip. And, you know, started on peptides. And then as a result, started working out harder. And then as a result,

started drinking more water and cleaned up my diet and started going to bed earlier. And there was definitely this domino effect, this cascading effect. I love Kelly and Juliet start out there. They're some of my best friends and they have a really great take on this is like, which is like working out should serve you to do the actual thing. Like the point is not working out. The point is working out so you can live your life. And so I went into this kind of monk mode season in preparation for the heli trip. And then it was full on. I had eight days of incredible heli skiing and late nights with the boys and I was totally prepped for it. And then I took a month off. I didn't work out for a month after that and ate whatever I wanted and just kind of sat in more stillness. And that was really cool too. I think what you touched on a little bit is something that I'm super obsessed about, which is second order effects.

I think a lot of people only consider the first order effects of their decisions, especially of habits. And a great example, what we're going to use drinking as kind of the example, but you apply this to anything, is if you go out drinking, we all know the first order effects of that, right? Like it's fun. It's fun. Next morning, wake up, you have a headache. You're probably not 100% for anything that you're going to do. And then it makes it that much easier to drink the second night and so on. And so there's second order effects. But even further, if you take that to the extreme, and I've got this runs in my family, unfortunately, where I have a sister who's a lifelong alcoholic, the really devastating second order effects are like destroying families, like beyond even yourself. And the good news is second order,

order effects cut both ways, right? So like exercise, we know the benefits, endorphins afterward, you get stronger, you maybe look a little bit better. But then like, there's the effect on mood and improving your relationships and you're having better sex and like all these other things. And I guess, I'm a big believer that, and it sounds like an oversimplification, but it's not as easy as it sounds. It's like, in many ways, a great life is just like doing things that make life better and not doing things that make life worse. And we pretend that we don't know which is which, but we absolutely do. Exactly. and I do think that containment protocol that you mentioned is really important. And for me, it's that full permission of like, okay, I'm gonna go full

sand, I'm gonna go off the rails like on purpose and experience it all at the bleeding edges. And then that like allows me to come back to working out and discipline with like a renewed sense of purpose and focus. Let me ask you a question though, if you don't mind me interrupting, because I'm going to guess most of our listeners will identify with you more than me because I'm probably like a little bit unusual in the sense that like, I just kind of like do the same routine every day. I think most people are more like you where they'll kind of vary and you know, they'll they'll slip a little bit and then come back. How do you come back is the question because what I see is a lot of people will go off the rails, so to speak. And then they really struggle to find their way back.

Two things. Number one is, I have, you know, spent the last decade through meditation and and therapy and a lot of spiritual practice getting in tune with my inner landscape. And so, you know, when I start to feel the cumulative effects of of being off the rails, like it, I have that awareness kind of locked down and it and it starts so so the contrast for me becomes very stark of like, okay, I've been I've been off the rails for too long. I'm not feeling as good as I was in and I also have the pull to want to perform well on a mountain bike or snowboarding or whatever it is. And if I go out and I'm like, oh, I'm I'm not feeling like I could. That's going to snap me back into place and be like,

okay, cool, I'm done. I'm ready to hang up my my partying screws for a little little while and I'm ready to lock in. And this is the thing I think people miss is that period of like, you know, even atomic habits, like you know, you can you stack 14 days or whatever people always talk about how hard it is. I actually kind of like that part. I actually like the excitement of like getting back into it and being like, oh, yeah, I'm mountain biking. Again, I'm getting into this discipline, I'm feeling better with eating like that that part is sort of exciting for me. And look, maybe maybe I'm kind of I've kind of wired my system to crave novel experiences, but I really like the novelty of switching modes. What I'm hearing from you is part of why you're able to come back is you're doing it in service of bigger goals that you have like, you go off the rails, you know that that's detrimental to

the big picture, but it's also in a way like part of the process. And then but but you're able to come back in many ways because you know, you want to be fit and healthy. You want to be sharp in your work. I know that's that's true. And I just wonder if that's the issue that a lot of people have is they and you know, we're going to talk about this in a future podcast episode, but like having that that guiding that North Star of what you're building toward that that does provide a reason for you to come back. And I would say, even to caveat just a little bit, when you say I know it's not good for the for the long term, like, yeah, I know stacked over time, you know, eating whatever I want and partying and you know, living the very yellow

lifestyle is not good over cumulative years, but I would actually argue that it is good for me and my mental health and like I like I am I've also tasted what it what it feels like to perform at a very high level both in the military and then you know, working on getting my pro card as a as a triathlete back in the day, like I've been at that extreme to and that actually doesn't feel good to me either. You know, one of the things when I when I was my fastest at Iron Man, I was training 25 hours a week, I was eating very strict diet, you know, paleo plus plus a few carbs to refuel. I was super skinny. and I didn't feel well, like I was always broken down from some injury. I was I was always on the verge of getting sick from training too

hard. Like I actually don't like living in that space either. Yeah, I in what you're describing is something you and I talk about all the time, which is the chasing. Like chasing anything is not healthy. Like we talk about the spiritual chasers, the money chasers, you know, chasing the high chasing the money chasing the triathlon PR that tends to become unhealthy. I think, you know, and maybe this is look, I've done all of that just before I say what I'm about to say, understand, you know, my, my standard saying is like, I've made every mistake in the book. So hopefully you don't have to you can learn something from me. But I've reached a point in my life and I'm a little older than you. I'm 55 where people will say to me sometimes like, man, you're so disciplined. And that kind of blows me away because I

really don't think of myself as disciplined because I do exactly what I want to do every day. It takes zero discipline. It, it's just like, I've just lost the, I might be tired and realize all I can, all I can do is get out of bed and meditate at that point. But yeah, anything. I mean, I do feel the same way. You know, people are like, Oh my God, you meditate 42 minutes a day. I could never do that. And I'm like, that's

my favorite part of the day. Like I can. I can't wait to do that part of my day. There's no discipline involved. It's like, this is exactly what I want to be doing. And I get grumpy if I don't get to 100%. And I think, you know, whether you know, you and I are weirdos, we like to write and you know, think big thoughts and, you know, ponder, wrestle with like, you know, really difficult issues and record podcasts and stuff, all weird things. But whatever it is for you, like, I think that's, that's a big part of it is like, figure out, you know, what do you really care about? Like, follow your actions. And there's got it, you know, inevitably, there's some healthy things that you care about, do more of those. We also all have weaknesses.

And we face temptation towards, our own proclivities towards unhealthy habits, do less of those. And look, I have my own weaknesses and it's a day-to-day battle, but it always feels pretty good when you make the right decision. I think this is also a huge part of this is self-trust. What I'm just recognizing right now is when I go into off the rails mode, I'm doing it with full permission. I'm not saying I'm going to wake up tomorrow and work out, and then don't, right? Because what that does is that breaks self-trust. I'm saying, I'm going on this vacation, I'm doing whatever I'm doing, and it's going to be full out, and I'm going to enjoy every second of it. I'm going to soak it up. There's no guilt,

there's no broken promises. I know exactly damn well what I'm doing. And then I come back, and if I say I'm going to work out, damn sure I'm going to work out. Because I never want to drink. I'm not going to break that promise. I feel s***** about it after every meal. That's miserable. I'm on board with that. If you're going to allow yourself to go off the rails, go full send, containerize it,

let yourself, give yourself permission to enjoy it and saver it, but make sure it comes to an end. When we talk about goals, my fitness goal is to snowboard when I'm 80. And that's it. My organizing principle around how I think about fitness is does this serve my North Star principle of snowboarding when I'm 80 and it turns out it's simple, not easy, but it's really not that. You don't have to eat a perfect diet. I don't have to be biohackerer to the max to be able to snowboard when I'm 80. I need to have some reasonable strength regimen. I need to have a reasonable engine, a cardiovascular engine, but number one, you know what gets people is mobility. And that's the one that's actually hard for me to work on is mobility. But it gives me this organizing principle of I don't need to be

training like I was training in my early or late 20s, early 30s for Iron Man. I just want to make it till. I'm 80. Cool. There's like an ease that's created with that. Last thing I'll say, and it's going to be my old man wisdom, is as I got older, I kept waiting for that age where I would start to hit the wall and feel old. And I thought it was going to be 40. 40 was fine. I thought it was going to be 45. 45 was fine. I thought it might be 50. 50 was fine. 55 hits different. And I think you would concede like I've taken care of myself better than most. Like I'm probably pretty extreme on that. But I will tell you what happens is the margin gets smaller over time. And I think this is something a useful thing for a lot of our listeners is like, yeah, when I remember when

I was in college, I could go drinking till three in the morning and get up at seven and go play basketball, sweat it out. And I was fine. I had a huge margin. The older you get, you have kids, you get a wife, your body just gets older, you have less and less margin. I will tell you that's part of where my radicalization comes from is. I just at 55, you just don't have the margin to go off the rails. Like I can do, I can party with Mike for one night. And I have have, but that's about it for me, dude. And then I got to get back on the program. Yeah. And I think that's totally fair. Right. And that's, that's why I love having a bit of different perspective here because I'm snowboarding at my highest level at 45. And while doing all of these things, and that still feels really great. I mean, definitely without a doubt, this season was my best season that I've ever logged

since I started snowboarding at 13 and I know that's, that's, there's a finite window there where I can say I am riding at my peak physical ability, but it's pretty damn cool to do it at 45. Yeah. The way I put it is you just have to turn the screws a little tighter every year older you get. But you know, I, all that said, like I, I'm still feeling and performing better than, than ever. So look, let's, this is a topic we could go on about on forever discussing, but I think the, you know, I guess maybe each of us can kind of give one piece of wisdom to, for our listeners to take away. I think, you know, mine would be, look, there's lots of ways to have fun. Some are more healthy than others. It's a spectrum. All I'm saying is just over time have more and more bias toward the things that compound life

in a positive way and less bias toward things that you know are unhealthy. And it really is that simple. It doesn't have to be a dramatic overnight change. Just slowly tighten those screws. Yeah. And- I think mine, because I can't agree, I can't disagree with any of that. That is, that is absolutely the proper frame. So I'm going to conceal, concede the, the point to Kevin on this one. And if you, if you are going to go savor the, the less healthy luxuries in life, do it with intentionality, do it with a container and, and do it with an end date and a, and a shift already planned out so that you don't wake up in a year or two and be like, Oh my God, how

beautiful this is. And let's see you guys next time.