Why Marc Andreessen is Wrong About Introspection

Full transcript

Automatic transcript, lightly corrected for names, with profanity masked. Some passages may contain transcription errors.

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Inner Circle with my friend Mike Brown Brown, myself, Kevin Dahlstrom. The idea behind this podcast is we tackle, have conversations that we would have anyway, because we're both part of each other's Inner Circle. We share those with the world in the hope that you hear one thing that maybe makes, makes you think a little bit differently. And today is yet another example of a literal I'm having, a discussion about offline and we're like, we should just record a podcaste podcast episode. I, I'm going to tee it off, Mike, by reading something that I posted a few days ago ago, you know, on the plat on X, which is where we spend a decent bit of time.

there's always like the topic de jour. And one , I think it's worth even backing up further., this whole topic de jour was kicked off by

Mark Andreessen said, say, I think it's crazy. the Buddha and Marcus Aurelius and several other folks were pretty introspective of my degree, he was only off by a couple of millennia. So this is, is not a new phenomenon. And my take is that introspection is the single most important quality to a life well lived. And therapy by by extension is a form of introspection. It's an introspection with a qualified licensed people who's who's helping you do that introspection. And look, there are, you therapy iselike,

exercise is what I, it was my point is that, like, yes, a brisk walk three times a week is not going you're going to be the thing that that makes that therapy doesn't work therapy is wildly effective for a lot of people and it's not effective for everyone if they're not committed to the process or they don't have the right therapist. So there is nuance one thing we definitely agree on is introspection is, as you said the key to a life well lived. And I, yeah, like you

disagree strongly with Andreessen's take and he double down on it in the days that followed. And I think you're right also that therapy is one form of introspection what's the saying like it's 2% inspiration 90% perspiration. And I think where people get my observation and I'm you're much more of expert on this topic than I am. But

my observation is the people I was talking about they treat therapy as the end, not the means to the end. And it almost becomes like a way I've almost I've said before it almost even becomes. But comes like a narcissistic endeavor. Some of the people I know who have been in therapy for 10, 20 years, they love their therapy, but they're in the same exact spot they were before. And I think it's because they don't treat it as in the 2% versus 98. Like, I think talk therapy with a great therapist is a, a great way to get the insights you need and the tools you need. But guess what? Then you got to go do the work. You got to do the action and the integration, right? And so what I teach, my clients is a,

a framework called the AI loop, which is awareness, insight, I think you're touching on here that people get out of therapy is like, where did this come from when maybe it came from experience that now imprinted upon me. And I, I'm acting this way, but action is the place where people get stuck. And you're right. People love mining for insight because it feels like you're doing something, but the, the insight portion should be the minimum effective dose. Right. I don't need to mine every childhood memory memory, to understand why operate the way, operate. I need enough to build the pattern recognition and go, Okay, I I see where this comes from. Now how do I start to repattern this?

Right. And first it's, it's conscious, that's where action comes in a conscious repatterning. Okay, I'm catching myself in the moment. I'm engaging in a process to repatter my belief and then integration is where that that sub conscious or second of nature. We've run that loop enough times that, that now we've created a new way of being. And you're right. And this is why I love coaching over therapy. Right. Like,, therapists are bound, like therapists are bound by specific guidelines. , right. But like as a coach, I, what I do, can look like a, a form of therapy, but I also just get to call people on their b******* and be like, like, hey, stop that. Like, I'm sorry that your mom was mean to you, but like, you, you can't treat your wife that way. to go back to the original Andreessen post about introspection.

And the, Elon actually retweeted or reposted it and said, yes, you'reing like neurological ruts. And there is some, truth to that. If you dwell too much on in this is it, right?, right? Like let me excavate enough to understand why I'm operating the way I'm operating, right? Look, most

and the vast majority of people would be served, I think, to do a little more digging than they do. But here's it's wildly uncomfortable. Like, it's, it's scary to have to dig into the things that hurt us. And, and I think that's, that's really where, you know, some, some of this comes from. And like Andreessen or Elon greatness, right? With the great men of history weren't introspective. Well, for me, I want to, I want to start by defining great, right? An example I use is Jay Paul Getty, you know, one of the most rich men in history, but his grandson was kidnapped and he wouldn't pay the ransom until he had it. He had his ear cut off. Like, is that a great man? I don't think so. No, I mean, so many of these discussions come back to like, what's the definition of success? And I, I say often that Elon Musk, the richest person

in the world, has literally said that his life is a tortured existence. So to me, success. And I also think a big part is how are you meeting the process? How, how are you finding

your therapist? So, so I'll, I'll, you know, I've had various therapists over the years. I am looking for someone that is absolutely world class at their craft. So they're usually, you know, recommended by a friend, they're vetted through my network, like I'm finding people at the absolute top of their game. And then I'm going to them with a specific outcome in mind, right? Like, let's say it's procrastination. Okay, I mean, this is something that I've struggled with my whole life. I'm terrible at admin, I would, I would rather jump off a bridge than have to call the health insurance company to process a claim like, like, and this is has really been, you know, know, sort of crippling throughout my life. And so I'm going to approach the therapist with this specific outcome in mind and go like, hey

I really want to dive into this. Now, what happens is we start diving in and, you know, find where these beliefs form. And this is the mark of a great therapist is they're actually there might be a whole iceberg that we're uncovering, right, like the titanic big, there. There might be a huge deeply ingrained pattern that is manifesting as procrastination, but it actually affects all of this other stuff like that's what a great therapist does. But sometimes there is a minimum effective dose where you could you could go for six sessions and like clear something in this is depends on the method that they're using right and there's some really effective stuff. So somatic experiencing therapy, you know, is locating these things in your body, like there is some some really cool modern technology, which is what I would say these techniques are that are extremely helpful, but you have to do

the work, as you said. I think that's my takeaway is like, you know, maybe 2% is too small, but 10% is like getting the insights adopting the technology as you referred to it. I I think it's a good word for it. And then the 90% is doing the work. I will say I think to me, I guess the red flag I see a lot is when in fact, there's a woman Abigail Shrier, who's a New York Times reporter wrote the book. I think it's called bad therapy or something. And one thing she my wife read, read it and she paraphrased it for me, but she was my wife was saying that she talks a lot about, like you know, what's happening and they can be

be harmful, especially with kids. And what happens is when the therapy itself becomes the identity, that's a huge problem. And that would suggest that you're getting the 90 10 flip the wrong way. Yeah. And identity is a great. So, the like, like a good therapy process should actually help you unwind identities that you built that service of that goal, you're, you're

effective therapeutic process might look like. But if I, you know, if I took on a new identity as the guy who hates cars and, you know, that it's equally as harmful. Is it fair to say, Mike that a good therapist or a good coach will force you to do the work? Because I think about like, is it a red flag? If you go.

And you're going to be around the service, dodging my hard hitting question. What is your ideal out, what are we actually doing? And often that will shake some, but I've also terminated engagements with clients, you know, the had a client like this at a time, but at the beginning of my career, four or five years ago, you know, there were folks who, who just weren't really interested in doing the actual deep work and the hard work that was required. And we just go, hey man, you don't have to do this, I assume that you're, but you're not willing to do the work like, I'm not going to waste either of our time. Yeah. Well, you know, we were joking before we hit the record button about how the work you do is hard to describe and frankly hard to sell because it's, it's a combination of a bunch of things and and the word

coaching life coaching particular has some like stigma around it. And, and frankly, like, having been tried therapy two or three times, this is going to sound really blunt and, unfair, but, but like, I start, I end up feeling most of the time, like, they're just yeah. And so, I guess what's someone to do if they've got like, I'm struggling in life, maybe it's something specific, maybe I don't even know exactly what it is. Like, where do I even

start? This is a really great question. And I sort of agree with you. I don't want to, I want to blanket label, most therapists has done asses, but here's what I'll say is you have to have someone that can match your processing speed and intellectually challenge you and push you, right and essentially be able to call you on your b*******. And by the way, like, I am an extraordinarily effective communicator. So if I went into therapy and didn't really want to get into the work, I could wow most therapists with with, with with all of the the jargon and they'd be super impressed, but I wouldn't actually be doing anything. Right. And it wasn't until I met my first coach who eventually became my mentor, Phillip

finding a match is really important and finding a match for you personally and your personality, like, like vibe check, like, do I actually want to want to spend time with this person? You know, do I do I feel comfortable with them? Can they deliver the result and coaching, especially more, more so than therapy, because therapy has a, you know, a methodology in coaching is has the person done the thing that I want to do? Here's what I use. I help people, you know, redesign their entire life from first principles and create that meaning purpose and fulfillment. And that's the thing that I've spent 10,000 plus hours on in the last, 10 years doing. I've gone deep into the depths of therapy, coaching, you know, psychedelic therapy, meditation, life design, finance, like I've done all of the things. And essentially,

like my body of work is my life. And by the way, that doesn't mean my life's free of problems. It doesn't mean that there's no friction a in my life, but, but like, you know, I've created what I believe is an extraordinary life for myself. All right, I got chills from that last one. So I'm going to, I always try to like for myself, every time we record an episode, I was like, I'm a simpleton. So like, what's the one takeaway? And I think you just know, which is like, if you're going to get help, a we all need help, I think we can all agree that you can label it however you want. So I have a problem with the talk therapy label, but that's my issue. But, but you hit three things. So, number one have to be your intellectual equal, right, so that you can spar with them because that's a lot of what you're doing. Number two, there has to be a personality match. Because like I always say about rock climbing,

like you're going to spend a lot of time with that person. it's pretty important that you actually just kind of like them at a human level. That number two. And number three, which is something I write about all the time, I write about all the time. Have they effing done it? Like examine their life. Do they have a great life? And that's sort of a qualification for someone being part of at least my inner circle anyway. I know you. I know you well enough now that, that Browns, you know, life without problems. Of course not. But you've got things pretty darn dialed at the age of, I don't know, 46, 47. And I like to think I do too. And it's, I've gotten there, there the hard way. And. And so you know, I always say, you know, emulate someone who you is, what you want to be and not just in one area of their life, but the totality of their life.

Here's, I think what I'm saying this for the first time out loud, but you know, I like sort of the way I was wired like I am, I am compelled to eliminate dissonance and take And, and so what, you know, people who work with me as clients get to benefit from is like my natural wiring. I applied that to personal development. Like I, I took all of the modalities to, to way beyond what most people would do. But that allows me to bring that knowledge back and, and help transfer it to someone else and go, Hey, this is b*******. This works. Here's all the things I did. I don't know what the right answers are for you, but I have a lot of experience doing this thing for myself.

All right. Well, I want to wrap this up. Yeah. Because I want to keep them to 20 minutes, but I'm going to. I, I'm going the of I'm going to say two words as a seed. For a future episode that are very related to this. And we should absolutely schedule this, which I want to talk about in the future, the role of plant medicine and all this. Oh, a lot of buzz about plant medicine, psychedelics, whatever you want to call it. But in my limited experience, it's had a huge impact on my ability to introspect. And I know yours as well. So we'll save that for later. Cliffhanger. Here we go. Yeah.